Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Hash_Browns]

the tank is the one who knows the limits of thier own abilities. Just because some tanks are capable of large pulls does not mean all are. Also, just because the healer thinks he can heal it, doesnt mean he can.

ultimately i would say, its a combination of tank and healer that should decide the pace.


Regardless imo, its bad form to kick players for such a difference in opinion. No one is entitled to control another player legitimately attempting to play. Party find and premake your groups if you expect that high an amount of synergy as the minimum acceptable.

I thought that was what we were talking about?
Considering the OP opened with "Earlier today within discord a group of us got into an disagreement".

If a tank can't pull in a premade, they are gonna get kicked, just as DPS who don't do damage, or healers who can't multi-task damage/healing do.

If you enter level 70 duties, and don't know your class, or how it works - expect people to get mad at the very least.

[Physic]

I thought that was what we were talking about?
Considering the OP opened with "Earlier today within discord a group of us got into an disagreement".

If a tank can't pull in a premade, they are gonna get kicked, just as DPS who don't do damage, or healers who can't multi-task damage/healing do.

If you enter level 70 duties, and don't know your class, or how it works - expect people to get mad at the very least.

if it was a party finder or premade i doubt there would be much debate.

its probably a duty finder, as people rarely use partyfinder for dungeons.

also level 70 duties are not what i would consider, high bar content. You can level to 70 without knowing every aspect of your class, and definitely not every aspect of each dungeon. Even when its bad, its not that bad as well.

Also, its not always not knowing your class, its sometimes the comfort of how you want to play. Some people prefer a relaxed pace, and some prefer a fast pace. I think its unfair to expect high synergy at the most casual of group content (duty finder dungeons)

[Hash_Browns]

if it was a party finder or premade i doubt there would be much debate.

its probably a duty finder, as people rarely use partyfinder for dungeons.

also level 70 duties are not what i would consider, high bar content. You can level to 70 without knowing every aspect of your class, and definitely not every aspect of each dungeon. Even when its bad, its not that bad as well.

Also, its not always not knowing your class, its sometimes the comfort of how you want to play. Some people prefer a relaxed pace, and some prefer a fast pace. I think its unfair to expect high synergy at the most casual of group content (duty finder dungeons)

As he stated, it was in a Discord group, meaning it wasn't in the duty finder - it was people using voice chat in discord (I'm going to guess a FC). Also I would like to clarify, as I did with earlier posts - if the tank is new to the dungeon, or is new to the class I see no problem with small pulls. However, once you get to 70, you should really, really, be able to do the most basics of your class.

[Lihtleita]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

i see you there you warrior main

[Physic]

As he stated, it was in a Discord group, meaning it wasn't in the duty finder - it was people using voice chat in discord (I'm going to guess a FC). Also I would like to clarify, as I did with earlier posts - if the tank is new to the dungeon, or is new to the class I see no problem with small pulls. However, once you get to 70, you should really, really, be able to do the most basics of your class.

he is not totally clear here, my read is that 3 people within their discord kicked a fourth rando duty finder player and then replaced them with a tank from thier discord.

also it seems he is asking what makes sense as a general rule.


i don't really think large pull sizes are basics of your class. Each tank you play with has a different style and prediliction. They also have different concepts of what us a large pull.

some people feel 5 monsters us a large pull, and some feel pulling everything up to the first impediment is a large pull. Some tanks are ok with wipes, and others despise it.

what i am trying to say is even among experienced tanks their is a large variation in how they approach executing their job. Someone who plays with controller may consider how difficult it is to target specific monsters into their own acceptable pull size.

[Beki_Bayaqad]

As he stated, it was in a Discord group, meaning it wasn't in the duty finder - it was people using voice chat in discord (I'm going to guess a FC). Also I would like to clarify, as I did with earlier posts - if the tank is new to the dungeon, or is new to the class I see no problem with small pulls. However, once you get to 70, you should really, really, be able to do the most basics of your class.

From what I read his discord had the debate after they called in a replacement on the discord to fill in for a newbie tank that wouldn't mass pull for them from more then likely a roulette. So it wasn't an inter-discord debate among friends, it was people debating the merits of kicking someone who's not comfortable with the demands of the party for someone who'll do it.

[Tlachtga]

Also, its not always not knowing your class, its sometimes the comfort of how you want to play. Some people prefer a relaxed pace, and some prefer a fast pace.

These are not mutually exclusive.

I think its unfair to expect high synergy at the most casual of group content (duty finder dungeons)

It's not "high synergy", it's basic competence.

If you're doing 70 dungeons while decently geared and you're not pulling everything, you're being lazy.

[Tint]

Yes, the tank should set the pace. But in the best interest of the group, wich means usually "pull big", and into consideration of his own skills.

However, I have a prime example of how impatient DDs and healers destroy my cooldown management and pull pace for no reason:

Ala Mhigo, between the first and second boss. At first there are 2 groups of trash with 2 soldiers and 1 robot monkey. These robot monkeys can hurt a lot. They also have a lot of life, so you can't aoe them down, you have to use single target attacks. I pull these 2 groups one by one, because as I said it makes no sense to aoe them and the main reason is: I don't need my cooldowns then. I want to save my cooldowns to pull the next trash groups after the robot monkeys together. All these dogs and whatever it was on top of the stairs at the barrier.
But nearly everytime some impatient DD or healer is running ahead and is pulling the second robot monkey. I have to grab that one, burn my cooldowns, watch while they single target the monkeys and then have to pull the next trash groups one by one, because my defense is already blown up.
Well, okay, when a healer pulls i refuse to use my cooldowns, so I still can do the big pull afterwards ^^

Of course people can request bigger pulls and how OP describes it the tank really should have tried to pull more, but usually the people should just trust the tank that he knows what he is doing - or what he is not capable of doing. And please stop starting to pull stuff on your own.

I remember one time in Antitower when I was a fresh level 60 tank. Big pulls are nothing you learn while leveling, and I really struggled with mana mangement (DRK with old Darkside), enmity and cooldowns. So I pulled smaller. And the whole party was just ignoring me. They were running ahead, pulled the next group and let me die. I actually laughed because it was a funny situation - but I left the dungeon.

[Hash_Browns]

From what I read his discord had the debate after they called in a replacement on the discord to fill in for a newbie tank that wouldn't mass pull for them from more then likely a roulette. So it wasn't an inter-discord debate among friends, it was people debating the merits of kicking someone who's not comfortable with the demands of the party for someone who'll do it.

he is not totally clear here, my read is that 3 people within their discord kicked a fourth rando duty finder player and then replaced them with a tank from thier discord.

Apologies, that does make sense after re-reading the OP's post.


I still feel that big pulls are/should be the standard in level 70 content.
At worst - the party dies.
At best - the tank sees that they can pull more

I feel like it's a "Difference in play style" as much as healers not DPSing is a "Difference in play style". I don't feel like expecting the tank to pull more then 4 trash enemies is groundbreaking, and endgame mechanics.

[Physic]

These are not mutually exclusive.



It's not "high synergy", it's basic competence.

If you're doing 70 dungeons while decently geared and you're not pulling everything, you're being lazy.

you are wrong or over simplifying.


"decently geared" what does that mean? max stat cap? minimum stat cap?

also, what are you fighting? i have played with experienced tanks, where some one has died or wiped due to pulling too large. We were fine with it because we know each other, but its simply not true that every tank can pull everything available with any healer class and survive or effectively hold hate.

for one thing, if your pull is too large, depending on your aoe hate tool, monsters will walk out of range.

And a style choice on how many monsters to pull can not be considered basic competence. basic competence means what will lead to success with average difficulty, not what is the optimal time attack method of play.