Please no more Eureka!

[Kalise]

The thing is, grinding old content is not a content in itself, so we can't use the argument that way. These old content already served their own purposes and have their own rewards. So grinding old content and tomes is not a content designed for the relic in mind, unlike Eureka.

Except for the fact that a main portion of the complaints around previous Relics was "I want Relic but don't want to farm old content"

So, it's exactly comparable.

Farming old content, extending its lifespan by breathing new rewards into it (Effectively like "Adding" new content by increasing the pool of relevant Dungeons/Trials) was something that enhanced gameplay. Something that was removed at the behest of people who complained about having to do that for the Relic.

One could use the exact same arguments as are being made for Eureka exclusivity on Relics for keeping Relics behind old content.

"You don't NEED the Relic"

"Don't like the content? Don't play it"

"Relic is supposed to be a grind that isn't for everyone"

Eureka is not designed with the Relic in mind. In the same sense that old content farms were not designed with the Relic in mind. Just having the Relic being exclusively earned from Eureka doesn't make it designed around it any more than Tam-Tara is designed for Zodiac weapons because you can farm up light there.

Nothing about Eureka explicitly is designed around the Relic. The story is mostly focused not on the Relic, but on the zone itself. The Relic isn't necessary at all to progress through the content. The Relic barely interacts with the content (Just the Elemental Bonus eventually). The Relic grind itself doesn't use anything that is unique to the content (FATEs/Light farms are not new. Neither is farming for items such as Logos Actions).

Just because the devs say "We designed the content for the Relic" doesn't actually make it so. If they had actually utilized unique Eureka only systems for the Relic grind (Such as needing to beat X, Y and Z enemies with your Elemental Wheel set to elements A, B and C, or with Magicite set in specific ways as opposed to stacking 5 in a single element to swap around for max damage with additional Magicite (That is attained through RNG currently...) being set to whatever the corresponding defence up will be) then this argument might have more merit.

However, as it stands, there is little difference between Eureka and previous Relics. Only that, inexplicably, instead of getting its own rewards (Which I advocate for) the Dev's got lazy and slapped in the Relic and removed the multi-faceted way of progressing such items that existed prior.

If, Eureka had been given its own, unique reward instead, this entire topic wouldn't exist. There wouldn't be an argument about Relics. There wouldn't be all these people complaining about Eureka (Aside from the "We lost content because of it!" thing, exacerbated by old content not being stretched out by Relic progression being tied to it). No-one would care that Eureka had exclusive rewards that could only be attained via grinding Eureka.

That is the crux of the issue. Instead of bothering to create new rewards for the new content, the Dev's decided to take an existing reward and stick it behind the new content. Not because they want to do something new, not because they feel the unique content is an interesting system for Relic progression (Since the Relic progression is largely unchanged from previous, in the sense that it's merely just FATE/Light farm stages ad infinitum) - Given the way that the Relic currently sits within the content. But because they're seemingly trying to entice people into a type of niche content that has failed previously as well as reduce the work needed to think of rewards by just taking another existing reward from somewhere else.

Exactly! just like wanting to have the relic and not be willing to set foot in Eureka.

It's more akin to if in ShB they made PvP top 100 rewards come from farming in a open world PvP zone. Where PvP enthusiasts then start complaining about having top 100 rewards no longer being tied to top 100 status and being told "Why do you need those rewards?" or "You still have wolf seal rewards!"

[Crushnight]

Well Eureka is designed with the relic in mind the reasons being:

1. You need the exp
2. Fates are required for the items
3. Pyros/Hydatos Bunnies chance to offer logograms which you need to get relic
4. Heat/Moist warped lockboxes give logograms
5. You can't get the gear without possessing the relic weapon
6. normal mob kills in Pagos/Pyros can give light
7. Adaptations/Mutations give light/lockboxes/logograms needed for relic
8. the Big bosses of each area has a relic specific item required
9. BA drops fragments to upgrade relic to final step

The only things not tied to the relic is the Eureka Story, pagos bunnies and basic area lockboxes. You go to the isle of Val for 2 reasons 1. Krile 2. Hancock/Rowena sees profit there so to start you went there because of weapons/relics and Krile it just evolved storywise to exclude the relic.
Also it is completely possible to never touch a fate to get to elv 60 but you have to do fates for relic so fates are implemented for the relic + exp

EDIT: Also all these things listed were not retroactively added to existing content the only step of the previous 2 relic questlines to have this was ARR base relic

[Nariel]

Well Eureka is designed with the relic in mind the reasons being:

1. You need the exp
2. Fates are required for the items
3. Pyros/Hydatos Bunnies chance to offer logograms which you need to get relic
4. Heat/Moist warped lockboxes give logograms
5. You can't get the gear without possessing the relic weapon
6. normal mob kills in Pagos/Pyros can give light
7. Adaptations/Mutations give light/lockboxes/logograms needed for relic
8. the Big bosses of each area has a relic specific item required
9. BA drops fragments to upgrade relic to final step

1. How the xp is even related to the relic, because at this point so does your chocobo and the mint herbs you fetch for Minfilia back then because you can't go to Eureka if you didn't do it, can you ?

2. Atma drop from fate, so fates was designed for the relic. said no one ever.

3. Wich aren't related outside of being a roadblock and the only meaning to even bother with it, once again isn't a proof of anything. Could have been an aftertough. "What do we do for them to look for logogram ? lets lock the relic behind it".

4. same here, prove nothing.

5. I'm pretty sure I can, but let say I can't. How it is related, I don't know, do you ?

6. So does PvP for precedent relic, PvP isn't designed with the relic in mind.

7. See answer n°2.

8. Go back to answer n°2 once again.

9. Wich is the only step related to the content and the only step that actualy don't serve any purpose outside of Eureka and maybe the only step deserving to stay an exclusive Eureka step even in future content, it don't add any non eurekan stat to it, totaly optional and I'm totaly fine with it. But once again, don't prove anything, could have been an argument if it was a thing back in anemos but it wasn't.

[Alucard135]

snip

Not wanting to farm old content and not wanting to do a content designed for something are not the same thing. One can easily be labeled as lazy design (which have been numerous times before) and the other can't be labeled that so easily until the content is out and tried.

Imagine if SE was to stop making new contents and expansions and instead just kept adding rewards to force you to farm old content, is that going to prolong the life of the game the same way as if they added new content for these rewards? Of course not (assuming both the old and new content are good). And hence why both are not comperable.

And when we say Eureka was designed for the relic, we mean it was created as the mean of obtaining it. Having the story not to do anything with the relic doesn't mean eureka wasn't made for it. Savage was designed for the challenge and obtaining the raid weapons. But there's no story whatsoever to relate them.

And having the devs say they designed it for the relic is enough for that. Just because the story wasn't made so doesn't contradict that they designed a content to be the mean of obtaining the relic. Just like my savage example. The content was designed to be the mean of obtaining the weapon and gear. There's no need to have a story to tie it or require it to be useful to do said content. But even then, the eurekan relic has a big advantage in Eureka when you upgrade it to Physeos and gain additional elemental damage. A lot are now light farming in pagos easily with the huge damage gain from Eurekan relic and gear (I soloed the bunny fate in pagos when 30 people were in the instance. And at another point, a tank that had no elemental gain died to the bunny fate boss while the boss barely can do significant damage to me).

[Nariel]

Imagine if SE was to stop making new contents and expansions and instead just kept adding rewards to force you to farm old content, is that going to prolong the life of the game the same way as if they added new content for these rewards? Of course not (assuming both the old and new content are good). And hence why both are not comperable.

Its the other way around. The raid is design to add content in the game, the weapon is a reward to make it worth doign more than once. You have a pretty strange way to see how the game work, are you aware that getting weapon isn't the core feature and close to nothing is build around the gear itself outside of curency and upgrading system. One more reason why I can't believe they put that much effort and ressources in a weapon that wasn't that much popular for the core audience of the game especially when the weapon is just a side quest in the content "designed for it".

[Kalise]

Well Eureka is designed with the relic in mind the reasons being:

1. You need the exp
2. Fates are required for the items
3. Pyros/Hydatos Bunnies chance to offer logograms which you need to get relic
4. Heat/Moist warped lockboxes give logograms
5. You can't get the gear without possessing the relic weapon
6. normal mob kills in Pagos/Pyros can give light
7. Adaptations/Mutations give light/lockboxes/logograms needed for relic
8. the Big bosses of each area has a relic specific item required
9. BA drops fragments to upgrade relic to final step

1) So are we going to say that level 3 sheep in La Noscea are designed for ARR and HW Relics because "You need the exp"?

Also, the Relic itself doesn't actually need the experience, you only need the experience to progress through the story which unlocks Gerolt.

2) So are all ARR FATEs and HW FATEs designed for their Relics too?

3+4+8) So you're telling me that you can do FATEs and have a chance to get an item that is necessary to progress your Relic?

I wonder if I've seen that mechanic exist in this game before...

6+7) Light farming. Brand new mechanic guys. Never been used before in the entire game and can never work outside Eureka. /s

9) Wow, you can do a Specific Dungeon and get items for your Relic! Wow, colour me impressed, I'd never thought I'd see the day when that was the case!

Also note: You can buy Logos off the MB.

As I said before, exclusively locking progression behind the content doesn't make the content "Designed around the Relic". Since it's literally the same as arguing that any of the content that was usable with previous Relics was "Designed around the Relic".

Especially given that the things that Eureka gets you to do, are almost exactly the same as with previous Relics, only instead of being done in the natural Overworld or via Duties accessed via DF, it's done exclusively within Eureka.

An example of a reward being designed around some content would be the PotD/HoH rewards. Where you go into the Unique Content and utilize a Unique Mechanic within that content (Finding Silver Chests to level up your gear) in order to earn the reward. Or another example is with difficulty of content being designed around, such as how the Savage item level gear comes from the Savage content which is uniquely more challenging than the normal variant.

Just putting in half the effort just to limit the ability to access something to a specific piece of content as opposed to any other similar content (Such as Overworld FATEs or DF Duties) isn't designing around that piece of content.

[Crushnight]

1. How the xp is even related to the relic, because at this point so does your chocobo and the mint herbs you fetch for Minfilia back then because you can't go to Eureka if you didn't do it, can you ?

2. Atma drop from fate, so fates was designed for the relic. said no one ever.

3. Wich aren't related outside of being a roadblock and the only meaning to even bother with it, once again isn't a proof of anything. Could have been an aftertough. "What do we do for them to look for logogram ? lets lock the relic behind it".

4. same here, prove nothing.

5. I'm pretty sure I can, but let say I can't. How it is related, I don't know, do you ?

6. So does PvP for precedent relic, PvP isn't designed with the relic in mind.

7. See answer n°2.

8. Go back to answer n°2 once again.

9. Wich is the only step related to the content and the only step that actualy don't serve any purpose outside of Eureka and maybe the only step deserving to stay an exclusive Eureka step even in future content, it don't add any non eurekan stat to it, totaly optional and I'm totaly fine with it. But once again, don't prove anything, could have been an argument if it was a thing back in anemos but it wasn't.

1. Exp is required to get fate items you cannot have a relic at elv 1 as min elv required is elv59 also these fates are designed differently you do not get rewarded with the items if your 2 levels below exp and level very much matter more here with regards to its system

2. my edit comment covers this atmas were rectoactively added after those open world fates weren't designed for the relic from the offset Eurekan fates were

3/4. Oh no it is not like they never added items that were apart of the relic process before cough books cough unidentifible cough thavnarian mist. If an item is needed for the relic the devs had to design how to obtain these items with regards to the relic

5. My friend got to Pyros for the 380 gear having only done an Anemos weapon and he was not allowed to purchase the gear despite having gotten all 50 abilities it is required to have the Pagos elemental weapon to get the Elemental gear

6. Are you forced to do PvP? i don't think so you are forced to kill basic mobs in Eureka for light though

7/8. see answer number 2 these systems were there in their zones day 1 these systems had relic in mind day 1

[Alucard135]

Its the other way around. The raid is design to add content in the game, the weapon is a reward to make it worth doign more than once. You have a pretty strange way to see how the game work, are you aware that getting weapon isn't the core feature and close to nothing is build around the gear itself outside of curency and upgrading system. One more reason why I can't believe they put that much effort and ressources in a weapon that wasn't that much popular for the core audience of the game especially when the weapon is just a side quest in the content "designed for it".

Imagine how many would bother doing ultimate raids or savage if they gain nothing but challenge for doing it (second coils savage?). With no rewards, a majority wouldn't bother with a content if they knew it will just be nerfed when unsynced. I for one wouldn't bother if there's no reward, since I pug my way through all savage content. So I'm not gonna waste hours of progging if it's only for completing it if I know I'll just do it a lot more quicker unsynced.

In Eureka, you don't only obtain the relic weapon. You get full gear sets, mounts, minions, glamour, hairstyles and furniture and lots more. So it fits a big content to have all these rewards with it. But the main purpose of it was to be the mean of obtaining the relic. Furthermore, if you're only interested in the relic, getting it is a piece of cake and also in a very short time compared to the previous way.

[Crushnight]

As I said before, exclusively locking progression behind the content doesn't make the content "Designed around the Relic". Since it's literally the same as arguing that any of the content that was usable with previous Relics was "Designed around the Relic".

See the difference between ARR after 1st step and HW questline vs Eurekan relic is Eurakan stuff interacted with the relic day 1 of each release whereas the other 2 weren't baring ARR step 1 No fate in ARR gave you atmas before you had a Zenith weapon, nothing in dungeons/trials/raids/materia interacted with you in regards to the relic, except the 2 ARR trials specifically designed for the ARR relic outside those 2 nothing in 2 full questlines, until you were on the appropriate step these were all designed completely for a different reason 1st and then relic item/light was slapped in there as an after thought. Eureka is designed differently most of the systems in there interact with the relic in 1 way or another from the very beginning, Eureka has been designed more for the relic than the previous 2 relic questlines had combined

[Kalise]

With no rewards, a majority wouldn't bother with a content if they knew it will just be nerfed when unsynced.

Why bother getting gear when it's just going to be nerfed when next expac drops and you can buy vendor gear better than it.

Content vs Rewards is a more complicated manner than "Item rewards = only reason to do content" or "Item rewards = incentive to do content more than once"

It's about finding the right balance. Content that is fun enough to keep people interested, and a reward that entices people to enter the content in the first place.

You can go more heavily towards the reward and force people through not fun content purely for the reward (Though, this breeds resentment). Or you can go more heavily towards fun content and have something exist purely based on people wanting to waste time there (This tends to make content less populated)

Also, the logic that Eureka needs to have the Relic reward as the carrot on the stick to get people to go through it is asinine, especially when by your own words "You get full gear sets, mounts, minions, glamour, hairstyles and furniture and lots more."

Literally, they could have "Designed" anything to be the reward for running through Eureka. Only this would have meant designing a Relic weapon AND an actual proper reward for Eureka (Though, full gear sets without having to farm duties is a significant draw for some people)

"Why grind though?" is the common question in response. Often implying that the heavy amount of grinding necessary for obtaining the Relic in Eureka is:

1) Necessary to have in such large amounts

2) Couldn't be directed towards something else (For example, they could have made leveling focus more on doing FATEs and Chaining as opposed to grinding these things for Crystals/Light)

See the difference between ARR after 1st step and HW questline vs Eurekan relic is Eurakan stuff interacted with the relic day 1 of each release whereas the other 2 weren't baring ARR step 1 No fate in ARR gave you atmas before you had a Zenith weapon, nothing in dungeons/trials/raids/materia interacted with you in regards to the relic, except the 2 ARR trials specifically designed for the ARR relic outside those 2 nothing in 2 full questlines, until you were on the appropriate step these were all designed completely for a different reason 1st and then relic item/light was slapped in there as an after thought. Eureka is designed differently most of the systems in there interact with the relic in 1 way or another from the very beginning, Eureka has been designed more for the relic than the previous 2 relic questlines had combined

That still doesn't mean it's "Designed" around it. Only that its implementation coincided with the release of it.

Given that Eureka was delayed in the expansion compared to the previous 2 Relics, this isn't that much different.

Like, if when they released Eureka they just made The Lochs FATEs give crystals while using your Antiquated 70 weapon it would have been the same thing.

To say nothing about how you can equally argue that much of Eureka is designed for leveling to get through the Eureka story (That doesn't involve the Relic).

You can go through Pagos without talking to Gerolt and getting the ability to farm for Light.

You can get Logos without having the Pyros weapon.

You can go through BA without having a Relic weapon.