Please don't defile BST

[Madisonlee]

We could have gotten Eruptions, Tornados, and Landslides. Even outside those we could have gotten new abilities like Protostar or Laughing Rose.

Those sound like cool ideas, and would make XIV SMN more interesting, however for me it goes against the nature of SMN. SMN to my knowledge hasn't ever used a primal's attack himself; he summons the primal to do the attack. Let me know if I'm wrong and missed an iteration of SMN that has ever done that. It's an interesting concept and would be totally cool, it just wouldn't be the SMN that has appeared in every other FF that I have personally played. It's more a BLU thing.

This is the issue that is causing. Lot of problems.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TRUE SUMMONER, period.

SE can make SMN however they want. In XIV it's a DoT mage pure and simple.

You're certainly right that SE can do and does whatever the heck they want, and that's what got them into trouble in 1.0. We had to embarrass them to such an extent that they fired the guy at the top of 1.0 and rebuilt the entire game.

Aside from that, you are also right in that SE is free to change around the job however they wish, but as Kalise was trying to drive through your head, it needs to adhere to what the job generally is known for, as one of the most fundamental and loved aspects of FFs are the famous jobs that we've grown to know and love throughout the years.

Again Kalise said this already but SE often changes it up a bit, add a Fairy to SCH which never had one before, DRG had a pet in XI which hadn't been done before, BST changes weapons alot (axes, daggers, whips, etc), the way Blue magic is learned and explained changes sometimes (the coolest was in XI IMO).

But you never change the core of the job. The core of SMN is SUMMONING PRIMALS. I don't understand what is so hard about this concept lol. That is not my, like, opinion dude. That is WRITTEN in the NAME of the job.

True FF fans will sometimes say " you can't put SMN in the MMOs, too overpowered" which is a valid argument. But they NEVER say "Summoner shouldn't be able to. . .summon." It's like you added WHM that couldn't heal! It's literally THAT big of a job deviation to not let SMN summon primals.

As you say, sure, they are SE, they made the game, they decide what a SMN becomes in each game. But they got this wrong, out of laziness or incompetence to implement pet jobs properly. And when they do something wrong, I've learned the only way Japanese devs tend to listen to the community is when we are loud and embarrass them about what they've done.

They started listening for Demi-Bahamut. I'm happy that you love your DoT mage and understand why you are angry that people want to change it. But what you are playing is NOT a Summoner to a large majority of us who know and love the job. I'm happy you enjoy it tho.

[Jkap_Goat]

Sad that some of these people only know summoner from that other job they had in that ugly game ( WoW). I don't think most of them played another final fantasy game ever. So they don't understand the what's it like to be a true summoner and not a dot mage.

[Eloah]

You're certainly right that SE can do and does whatever the heck they want, and that's what got them into trouble in 1.0. We had to embarrass them to such an extent that they fired the guy at the top of 1.0 and rebuilt the entire game.

Aside from that, you are also right in that SE is free to change around the job however they wish, but as Kalise was trying to drive through your head, it needs to adhere to what the job generally is known for, as one of the most fundamental and loved aspects of FFs are the famous jobs that we've grown to know and love throughout the years.

Again Kalise said this already but SE often changes it up a bit, add a Fairy to SCH which never had one before, DRG had a pet in XI which hadn't been done before, BST changes weapons alot (axes, daggers, whips, etc), the way Blue magic is learned and explained changes sometimes (the coolest was in XI IMO).

But you never change the core of the job. The core of SMN is SUMMONING PRIMALS. I don't understand what is so hard about this concept lol. That is not my, like, opinion dude. That is WRITTEN in the NAME of the job.

True FF fans will sometimes say " you can't put SMN in the MMOs, too overpowered" which is a valid argument. But they NEVER say "Summoner shouldn't be able to. . .summon." It's like you added WHM that couldn't heal! It's literally THAT big of a job deviation to not let SMN summon primals.

As you say, sure, they are SE, they made the game, they decide what a SMN becomes in each game. But they got this wrong, out of laziness or incompetence to implement pet jobs properly. And when they do something wrong, I've learned the only way Japanese devs tend to listen to the community is when we are loud and embarrass them about what they've done.

They started listening for Demi-Bahamut. I'm happy that you love your DoT mage and understand why you are angry that people want to change it. But what you are playing is NOT a Summoner to a large majority of us who know and love the job. I'm happy you enjoy it tho.

What does the issue that was 1.0 have to with SMN, they are not mutually exclusive. And Kalise wasn't trying to drive anything into my head. XIV's Summoner does exactly as its namesake implies it summons. The main issue there isn't the Egi itself but it's appearance; as most people have pointed out the ones in XI act similarly but appear more "traditional". As you said, it's in the like, name of the job, Arcanist, Scholar, and Summoner are all "summoners" in the world of XIV.

And please, for the love of holy, stop confusing my stance on the matter as me "liking" the job, I don't. Can I tolerate it, yeah, but I have just as many gripes with it as the rest of you. I am just placing my blame where it's supposed to be, the mechanics of the job, not the thematics. Kalise gave a reasoning why she didn't like XIV's SMN, and I thanked her, because she was describing how the mechanics didn't feel right, not the theme. Remember XIV and XI's SMNs are more alike than people think, but because the Avatars looked "cooler" they didn't run into the same issue. Instead people argued the mechanics of the job. And Avatars are the exact same thing as Egis, smaller versions of the greater whole.

So they don't understand the what's it like to be a true summoner and not a dot mage.

There is no such thing as a "True Summoner". More iconic yes, true no.

[Flana]

Those sound like cool ideas, and would make XIV SMN more interesting, however for me it goes against the nature of SMN. SMN to my knowledge hasn't ever used a primal's attack himself; he summons the primal to do the attack. Let me know if I'm wrong and missed an iteration of SMN that has ever done that. It's an interesting concept and would be totally cool, it just wouldn't be the SMN that has appeared in every other FF that I have personally played. It's more a BLU thing.

You're fixating too hard where I said "you.' I specifically said in the post that we could have used those abilities through the pets (effectively commanding them to do things), not that the Summoner itself is going to go around spamming Mountain Buster. They could have given the pets more depth and some new skills for the first time since ARR, but didn't. Instead they added a new pet with even less depth, because Bahamut literally does nothing except attack. At least Ifrit and Garuda can pretend to have complexity through Radiant Shield and Contagion.

But you never change the core of the job. The core of SMN is SUMMONING PRIMALS. I don't understand what is so hard about this concept lol. That is not my, like, opinion dude. That is WRITTEN in the NAME of the job.

This is what Summoner is in XIV. You can not like egi's, fine, but that is literally summoning the aspect of a primal. You still command them to do their signature attacks (except Bahamut, because reasons I guess). That never changed in Final Fantasy XIV.

Sad that some of these people only know summoner from that other job they had in that ugly game (XI). I don't think most of them played another final fantasy game ever. So they don't understand the what's it like to be a true summoner.

This is far more accurate in my experience.

[Dyvid]

You two are free to enjoy XIV's SMN as it is, that's fine. But you obviously haven't ever played any other FF aside from XIV if you think a true SMN is a "DoT mage." I know this game gets a lot of WoW refugees and the like, and that's fine, but understand where FF fans are coming from when we complain about job identity. I'd venture to say that regardless of how many people are fine with XIV SMN, the majority of people recognize that it in no way, shape, or form aside from Demi-Bahamut resembles what SMN has been in EVERY other FF, NOT just XI. As I said before, I thought XI's SMN was rather weak and weirdly implemented, but at the very least it was still SMN. Asking me to "move on" from XI is laughable, I haven't played the game in over a decade.

You assume too much. Let me explain something to you. I first played Final Fantasy on my NES in 1990 and have played and beat every numbered titled. I have seen Summoner in every playstyle form, have seen Eikons from one and done spells to controllable pets. I've marveled at the many different takes of the famed monsters from a tale in a Chocobos Book to drivers of go karts. I unlocked SMN in FFXI as my first Advanced Job in earlier 2004, switched to BLM because of my disappointment of being a /37 WHM, then changed to Corsair because I really enjoyed the playstyle. I played FFXIV 1.0 at launch, alpha tested after the meteor, played ACN during beta and then SMN at 2.0 relaunch. So yea, my resume is full thanks.

The point is I'm old enough and wise enough to understand why Summoner is SMN in FFXIV, why we can't have things one way and not another. I've given tons upon tons of feedback to the Dev about SMN from improving Egi design to added what would be know as Demi-Bahamut back in 2015. Most of all I understand it's more important that you play a job you enjoy over playing a job you wish you enjoyed. If you like playing SMN in FFXIV, great I welcome feedback that would improve upon the original design. If you hate SMN, fine because you are entitled to free thought and the right to voice your displeasure to the Development team. The only thing I disagree with is when asking to completely scrap a job because it's not how you envisioned it. If it was my choice I would have went with my idea from 2005 about having a two hour ability shaped around a summon giving every job the chance to fulfill the FInal Fantasy iconic role. SE chose to add a DoT/Pet Job that plays different from BLM rather similar, and it's a job I've enjoyed playing since 2013.

[Eloah]

You assume too much. Let me explain something to you. I first played Final Fantasy on my NES in 1990 and have played and beat every numbered titled. I have seen Summoner in every playstyle form, have seen Eikons from one and done spells to controllable pets. I've marveled at the many different takes of the famed monsters from a tale in a Chocobos Book to drivers of go karts. I unlocked SMN in FFXI as my first Advanced Job in earlier 2004, switched to BLM because of my disappointment of being a /37 WHM, then changed to Corsair because I really enjoyed the playstyle. I played FFXIV 1.0 at launch, alpha tested after the meteor, played ACN during beta and then SMN at 2.0 relaunch. So yea, my resume is full thanks.

The point is I'm old enough and wise enough to understand why Summoner is SMN in FFXIV, why we can't have things one way and not another. I've given tons upon tons of feedback to the Dev about SMN from improving Egi design to added what would be know as Demi-Bahamut back in 2015. Most of all I understand it's more important that you play a job you enjoy over playing a job you wish you enjoyed. If you like playing SMN in FFXIV, great I welcome feedback that would improve upon the original design. If you hate SMN, fine because you are entitled to free thought and the right to voice your displeasure to the Development team. The only thing I disagree with is when asking to completely scrap a job because it's not how you envisioned it. If it was my choice I would have went with my idea from 2005 about having a two hour ability shaped around a summon giving every job the chance to fulfill the FInal Fantasy iconic role. SE chose to add a DoT/Pet Job that plays different from BLM rather similar, and it's a job I've enjoyed playing since 2013.

If I wasn't already married, I think I'd ask you to marry me, lol.

Thank you, for the love of Hydaelyn, Thank you. This is what I've been trying to get across. Just because it's different, doesnt make it wrong. People are allowed their opinions, just place the focus on the right topic.

Again thank you, I know a few people at least get it.

[Madisonlee]

You're fixating too hard where I said "you.' They could have given the pets more depth and some new skills for the first time since ARR, but didn't.

Apologies, I didn't read closely enough. And that sounds fine, I like your ideas in regard to that, as long as you make Egis actually resemble a primal.

I think that's actually where most of my hatred comes from (along with them mechanically being glorified DoT trash), that no matter SE's explanation in the story, whether they're the "essence", "aspect", "avatar," whatever of a real summon, they've always at the very least RESEMBLED one lol. Egis resemble mutated chicken nuggets.

I understand that they laid out in text explanations about how the Egis are the "essence" of the primal, etc etc. (can you tell I'm not well versed in XIV's SMN? ;p) but thematically and mechanically they are dumb. No amount of text explanation saying "Hay guys these are true summoners!" will make up for the impostor I see in XIV.

You assume too much. So yea, my resume is full thanks.

The point is I'm old enough and wise enough to understand why Summoner is SMN in FFXIV, why we can't have things one way and not another. The only thing I disagree with is when asking to completely scrap a job because it's not how you envisioned it.

There is -no- reason as to why SMN is this way in XIV. Any perceived limitation on traditional summoning by the devs is a garbage excuse of laziness to not implement it properly. There are countless ways that ANY of us could come up with that are 1 million times better than a DoT mage, which SMN has NEVER been.

Anyways, apologies for assuming your knowledge on the subject, I just can't imagine how anyone who knows what SMNs were in past games is OK with their current iteration.

And from your explanation, you aren't happy with it either, correct? I actually like what you suggested, and I am NOT saying scrap the whole dang job LOL. I want to PLAY the job, not have it be deleted!

An easy fix that would make me happy is release Egis of the other primals, and let egi's "evolve" once we hit 80 to look more like a primal and expand upon their abilities and do some work on the pet controls in this game. They could also just keep egis as is, and add more Demi-Bahamut esque summons that serve as more of a one off. It doesn't matter to me. Just make the Summons MATTER. Make them more resemble a primal. I'll be a happy camper, even if I have to spam DoTs along with controlling a primal. There are so many ways they could do it.

Just because it's different, doesnt make it wrong.

We agree on that as a blanket statement, but they took the deviation too far for SMN in my opinion. So we can just agree to disagree on that one. This thread has been derailed enough, my main point was just to please not make BST a limited job, and to un-limit BLU haha.

[Eloah]

... as long as you make Egis actually resemble a primal.

I think that's actually where most of my hatred comes from (along with them mechanically being glorified DoT trash), that no matter SE's explanation in the story, whether they're the "essence", "aspect", "avatar," whatever of a real summon, they've always at the very least RESEMBLED one lol. Egis resemble mutated chicken nuggets.

Now you are getting to the heart of the matter. This is exactly what a lot of us have been saying. It's the designs, not the themes.

I understand that they laid out in text explanations about how the Egis are the "essence" of the primal, etc etc. (can you tell I'm not well versed in XIV's SMN? ;p) but thematically and mechanically they are dumb. No amount of text explanation saying "Hay guys these are true summoners!" will make up for the impostor I see in XIV.

There is -no- reason as to why SMN is this way in XIV. Any perceived limitation on traditional summoning by the devs is a garbage excuse of laziness to not implement it properly. There are countless ways that ANY of us could come up with that are 1 million times better than a DoT mage, which SMN has NEVER been.

Guess what, SMN in XIV is a DoT mage, break out the front page. There is no "true summoner" and there never will be. You yourself said you played XI, how is XIV's SMN any different? The only main differences are the ones you listed above, in regards to the Egi designs. Cause in XI when a SMN wasn't focused on their pet, they were casting Black or White Magic spells, how does that differ from DoTs. Even in the other FF games when a Summon/Summoner wasn't needed the character who did the summoning had another function.

Also, you know what happened when we got something that resembled more "traditional" summoning, people bitched that they couldnt see over the huge summon. To recap; people were unhappy with the small summons and wanted larger ones, only for those same people to complain once they got a larger one, that it was too big for them to see anything else. We are a fickle community.

Anyways, apologies for assuming your knowledge on the subject, I just can't imagine how anyone who knows what SMNs were in past games is OK with their current iteration.

This is rather rude dont you think. Whether, he is an expert in SMN or just learning, his knowledge on the subject has no barring on what he finds enjoyable.

An easy fix that would make me happy is release Egis of the other primals, and let egi's "evolve" once we hit 80 to look more like a primal and expand upon their abilities and do some work on the pet controls in this game. They could also just keep egis as is, and add more Demi-Bahamut esque summons that serve as more of a one off. It doesn't matter to me. Just make the Summons MATTER. Make them more resemble a primal. I'll be a happy camper, even if I have to spam DoTs along with controlling a primal. There are so many ways they could do it.

This is a good explaination.

We agree on that as a blanket statement, but they took the deviation too far for SMN in my opinion. So we can just agree to disagree on that one. This thread has been derailed enough, my main point was just to please not make BST a limited job, and to un-limit BLU haha.

You're right it's an opinion. Meaning it's not right or wrong.

I'm curious how you would of reacted if BLU was implimented with the quest idea, instead of it's more traditional method.

[Kalise]

There is no "true summoner" and there never will be.

I'd argue against that notion to be honest.

Much for the same reason as with the upcoming Gunbreaker.

Like, "Gunblades" have taken various forms within the FF series. Like you say, SE can change them as they see fit in any future titles.

We have VIII's Gunblade which is a sword with a revolver handle/chamber that "Shoots" a shock down the blade.

We have XIII's Gunblade which is a sword that folds into a pistol and shoots bullets.

We have XIV's Gunblade which is a gun with essentially a sword as a bayonet.

We have VII's spin offs/movies Gunblades which are just guns with blades along the barrels with exception of Crisis Core having a Halberd that could be flipped around and used as a rifle as well as in Dirge of Cerberus you have Rosso using a twin bladed sword with a gun in the handle.

Yet, Gunbreaker is going to be using VIII's Gunblade. Why?

Because Yoshida himself said that due to how iconic VIII's Gunblade was, that was the "TRUE Gunblade". With XIV's Garlean "Gunblades" being a "Mistake" and that he "Wishes he was there during 1.0 to change them"

Now, the same can be said for Summoner. Sure, SE can change them in different iterations of the game, but iconically, people are going to be looking at the notable Summoner characters like Rydia from IV, Garnet and Eiko from IX and Yuna from X.

None of which were DoT mages that summoned a Popoto, Spicy Popoto, or some weird Green Goblin thing. But instead summoned actual Eidolons (While then using standard White and Black magic when summons weren't needed)

You can use the same argument that Yoshida himself used and claim that these are "True Summoners" just like how Squall/Seifer use the "True Gunblade" because theirs is the most iconic.

[Eloah]

I'd argue against that notion to be honest.

Much for the same reason as with the upcoming Gunbreaker.

Like, "Gunblades" have taken various forms within the FF series. Like you say, SE can change them as they see fit in any future titles.

We have VIII's Gunblade which is a sword with a revolver handle/chamber that "Shoots" a shock down the blade.

We have XIII's Gunblade which is a sword that folds into a pistol and shoots bullets.

We have XIV's Gunblade which is a gun with essentially a sword as a bayonet.

We have VII's spin offs/movies Gunblades which are just guns with blades along the barrels with exception of Crisis Core having a Halberd that could be flipped around and used as a rifle as well as in Dirge of Cerberus you have Rosso using a twin bladed sword with a gun in the handle.

Yet, Gunbreaker is going to be using VIII's Gunblade. Why?

Because Yoshida himself said that due to how iconic VIII's Gunblade was, that was the "TRUE Gunblade". With XIV's Garlean "Gunblades" being a "Mistake" and that he "Wishes he was there during 1.0 to change them"

Now, the same can be said for Summoner. Sure, SE can change them in different iterations of the game, but iconically, people are going to be looking at the notable Summoner characters like Rydia from IV, Garnet and Eiko from IX and Yuna from X.

None of which were DoT mages that summoned a Popoto, Spicy Popoto, or some weird Green Goblin thing. But instead summoned actual Eidolons (While then using standard White and Black magic when summons weren't needed)

You can use the same argument that Yoshida himself used and claim that these are "True Summoners" just like how Squall/Seifer use the "True Gunblade" because theirs is the most iconic.

True and iconic mean vastly different things and at the end of the day you and a lot of other people keep pointing to the design of the Egis as the main issue, which is fine. So please stop trying to point the finger at the DoTs. Everyone is in agreement that between summonings a SMN casts "filler" spells, how are DoTs any different.

Oh and to add to the Gunblade imagery. Yes the ones from VIII are the traditional design, but that's not an actual gunblade, it's actually just a glorified sword with a vibrator. The weapon from XIII would actually qualify as the first official gunblade, since the weapon functions as both. And the ones for the Garlean empire are based on actual weapons from our own history, that also functioned as both. So which is "True", the one with the appearance most people are familiar with, the first one to actually function as both a gun and blade, or one based on real world history. The answer would technically be the one from our history, because it's actually real. But the more iconic one is the one from VIII. And the upcoming one for Gunbreaker is different to my knowledge, since it might actually function as a gun as well.