Please don't defile BST

[Eloah]

things and stuff

Look, I don't want to monopolize this thread with a SMN discussion, when it's supposed to be about BST. Especially since if you look at what we both wrote we are agreeing more than disagreeing. I just was trying to state that, it's not one off summons that define a SMN, it's the ability to summon and the summons themselves; Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh, etc. that's what defines them.

And as for referencing XI. Truthfully, I've never played it either, just researched as much as I could. I was just demonstrating that even though most people act like it's the end all beat all of the job, the XI version isn't that different from XIV's, yet XIV's get flack. As for why I referenced it to you, it was because the summon stuck around in XI too, like the Egis. Plus you said you played X, that was the first game in the series where the summons became actual party members and stuck around.

Can we both just agree that although our views appear to differ, they are alike. So that this thread can get back the it's real topic.

[Khalithar]

I've been thinking a lot about how to make BST and SMN different, ultimately the SMN pet is more or less a glorified dot and it's up to the player to do the majority of the dps. I actually think the game's interpretation of smn is fine, it's functional and does what it needs to. But for Beastmaster I think they need to put more emphasis on the pet and what it can do as a way of making it "feel" more critical to the job and it's performance. They CAN add a collecting minigame where you tame the various creatures (coeurls, bears, tigers, etc.) while keeping their stats balanced and then select one as a pet to join you in combat. But now the question is how to make it more involved with the job performance?

You could make the oGCD abilities where you command the pet to do various special attacks, you could make certain combos cause the pet to do a weapon skill each time, or you could go an entirely different route and make the beastmaster play support and focus on keeping the pet alive and powered up and make it the bulk of the damage. I actually think the beastmaster hanging back while commanding their creature to do the majority of the work is most fitted for the job but I don't know if the devs would be cool with that. Hard to say!

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

I haven't played 11 but traditionally SMN in FF is a job that summons a huge entity for a very short period of time. From FF8, when the summoning animation hijacked the entire screen (and you nearly broke your thumb trying to Boost) to FF10 where the Aeon battles made your party flee and locked you into pet commands, summons have always been a big impressive thing with a very short life-span. I don't think traditional ff summoner is possible given how the FF14 job system is structured, but Im all for new egi glams or even NEW egis from some of the new primals.

As for BLU. Blue Mage/Magic has always been either A) enhanced melee or B) a collection of niche support skills. Since we have our spell-enhanced melee already (RDM), I see why SE didn't go that route. And unless they do, BLU cannot contend with the other jobs, again because of how the system is structured. It would be a straight support class and an uneven one at that.

[Madisonlee]

happy with current SMN etc

XI was a pretty bad iteration of SMN if you ask me, though it was still SMN, so I loved it. After 70 with attacks like predator claws, it became more akin to a true summoner.

XIV was not SMN before Demi-Bahamut. Period. It didn't summon any known summons (carby isn't actually a summon in XIV, if I remember right)

Don't confuse my meaning of "summon" with just some random piece of crap that looks like a chicken nugget. By summon, I meant very specifically *THE* Summons, IE: Avatars, Aeons, Espers, Guardian Forces, Eidolons, Astrals. The same famous ones usually appear in most FF games: Shiva, Ramuh, Titan, Siren, Bahamut, Garuda, Ifrit, Alexander, etc etc.

Not a chicken nugget.

As Kalise said, XIV SMN is literally just WoW's warlock, with Bahamut tacked on (better than nothing, true)

[Eloah]

Don't confuse my meaning of "summon" with just some random piece of crap that looks like a chicken nugget. By summon, I meant very specifically *THE* Summons, IE: Avatars, Aeons, Espers, Guardian Forces, Eidolons, Astrals. The same famous ones usually appear in most FF games: Shiva, Ramuh, Titan, Siren, Bahamut, Garuda, Ifrit, Alexander, etc etc.

Not a chicken nugget.

As Kalise said, XIV SMN is literally just WoW's warlock, with Bahamut tacked on (better than nothing, true)

Okay, this seems to have gotten a bit out of hand, and my original posts meaning seems to have been lost. First off, no I am not happy with XIV's Summoner, I am just not over inflating them into something they arent, and never were. Second, your list of all the past names for summons works against you, kinda, as Egis are XIV's version, which includes classical summons. You referencing Titan's appearance as a "chicken nugget" indicates you don't mind the prospect of the summons, just aren't a fan of their designs; which has been a complaint for some time. And third, who cares if it's just like WoW's Warlock, if we shouldn't be comparing XIV's version to XI's, or any others, we definitely shouldn't compare it to another franchise's similar iteration, in a thematic sense.

The main point that was lost was this: there is no such think as a "real/true Summoner" SE can do whatever they want with their job properties. The job is fine thematically, but mechanically it needs some work, that's the gripe most people have, they just point the finger at the wrong source. Heavensward and Stormblood did a good job "adjusting" things, but they still could be better. We know that they are getting an overhaul in Shadowbringers, so here's hoping.

[Kalise]

And third, who cares if it's just like WoW's Warlock

Personally, I do.

I can't speak for others, but I personally care that it's just like WoW's Warlock.

Not because I dislike WoW's Warlock, far from it, I've always been partial to Warlock. More DoTs = Best DoTs is my motto

However, from a design standpoint, it's lacking if it's just WoW's Warlock. Since Warlock has always had the majority focus on the Warlock themselves, with their minion being just there for buffs maybe a utility skill. They're literal fodder whom Warlocks contract to their will, completely disposable and not at all particularly powerful (Except for like, old Doomguard which required a live sacrifice to summon it and then needed to be actively Enslaved lest it go on a rampage and start killing, well, everyone). Even the Demonology Warlock specialization has a lot of the emphasis still on the Warlock themselves, sure they have more output from their Felguard (Or Wrathguard I believe it is these days?) but you still end up playing essentially Fire Mage but you spawn demons out the wazoo... (Which is actually the only issue I have with Warlock's design, is that after a certain point in the games life Demonology and Chaos specializations started to just feel like Fire Mage 2.0. Even more so when it was meta for Chaos to just use the Sacrifice skill to get rid of their minion altogether)

Compared to how Summoner has been presented in most games in the Final Fantasy series, where summons were always these big, impactful skills where an iconic character comes along and wrecks your opponent (Either by murdering their face, or by aiding your team). These weren't just fodder enemies that you didn't give a crap about and were just glorified DoT's that you got annoyed with when bosses killed with their AoEs. No, these were characters whom you knew and loved being summoned to do their iconic skills which were awesome and powerful.

Like, one of my favourite cutscenes in any Final Fantasy game is still the Bahamut vs Alexander fight in IX

Comparing the scale and power of those 2 summons, to the crappy popotos that we get called an Egi and saying that the job is thematically consistent is farcical.

[Eloah]

Personally, I do.

I can't speak for others, but I personally care that it's just like WoW's Warlock.

Not because I dislike WoW's Warlock, far from it, I've always been partial to Warlock. More DoTs = Best DoTs is my motto

However, from a design standpoint, it's lacking if it's just WoW's Warlock. Since Warlock has always had the majority focus on the Warlock themselves, with their minion being just there for buffs maybe a utility skill. They're literal fodder whom Warlocks contract to their will, completely disposable and not at all particularly powerful (Except for like, old Doomguard which required a live sacrifice to summon it and then needed to be actively Enslaved lest it go on a rampage and start killing, well, everyone). Even the Demonology Warlock specialization has a lot of the emphasis still on the Warlock themselves, sure they have more output from their Felguard (Or Wrathguard I believe it is these days?) but you still end up playing essentially Fire Mage but you spawn demons out the wazoo... (Which is actually the only issue I have with Warlock's design, is that after a certain point in the games life Demonology and Chaos specializations started to just feel like Fire Mage 2.0. Even more so when it was meta for Chaos to just use the Sacrifice skill to get rid of their minion altogether)

Compared to how Summoner has been presented in most games in the Final Fantasy series, where summons were always these big, impactful skills where an iconic character comes along and wrecks your opponent (Either by murdering their face, or by aiding your team). These weren't just fodder enemies that you didn't give a crap about and were just glorified DoT's that you got annoyed with when bosses killed with their AoEs. No, these were characters whom you knew and loved being summoned to do their iconic skills which were awesome and powerful.

Like, one of my favourite cutscenes in any Final Fantasy game is still the Bahamut vs Alexander fight in IX

Comparing the scale and power of those 2 summons, to the crappy popotos that we get called an Egi and saying that the job is thematically consistent is farcical.

I have to thank you for this response. Because this is the kind of response that is needed for the issue at hand with Summoner. You are expressing that the mechanics of the job are the issue, not their theme. Basically, their presentation is off, and presentation is very important. Even XI, where the pet acted very similar to XIV's, had them feel more integral to the job, because of their appearance and their skills. And while that may not completely work in XIV, Demi-Bahumut was a move in the right direction.

So again thank you.

[Dyvid]

First on topic, I think it could be said that BST in FFXI was a limited job because it was mainly used for soloing. In fact it even had a xp penalty to the party if you had a BST. Second I don't think SE wanted to add anymore pet jobs because it's been such a headache in term of AI development. The best pet is one left on auto because of command lag. Maybe in 5.0 they'll fix this but for now.....

Now as for SMN, people seem to forget this is FFXIV and the job has to be designed to play within the games mechanics. First, egi are small so people can see when to dodge. This was a prime issue in 4.0 with Demi-Bahamut and people saying it's too big. Second is the gameplay style, SE wanted something that would be different from BLM which was the second caster in 2.0. In all purposed, FF SMN is just a very cinematic nuker; Rydia casting Meteor and Bahamut did 9999 regardless. DoT mage is good for pets because it allows players to keep dps up and give them time to control pets, which is why I believe the devs chose it. Lastly this Bahamut Summon does not translate well into a MMO. It's basically a Limit Break.

[Kalise]

Now as for SMN, people seem to forget this is FFXIV and the job has to be designed to play within the games mechanics. First, egi are small so people can see when to dodge. This was a prime issue in 4.0 with Demi-Bahamut and people saying it's too big. Second is the gameplay style, SE wanted something that would be different from BLM which was the second caster in 2.0. In all purposed, FF SMN is just a very cinematic nuker; Rydia casting Meteor and Bahamut did 9999 regardless. DoT mage is good for pets because it allows players to keep dps up and give them time to control pets, which is why I believe the devs chose it. Lastly this Bahamut Summon does not translate well into a MMO. It's basically a Limit Break.

To retort to this I merely point to Demi-Bahamut.

Demi-Bahamut works in an MMO setting. It also brings some of the feeling of having a powerful summon doing powerful things.

Demi-Bahamut is SMN's one saving grace.

More Demi's and less Egi's would be ideal.

Even that FFVIII summon, is literally what Demi-Bahamut does. Where he casts Wyrmwave on your target and you have Akh Morn to have him use. Sure, there's not a 5 day wind up culminating in a nuclear explosion, but you get a MMO realized version of that summon.

Demi-Bahamut also bypasses a lot of the stupid AI problems that Egi's suffer from (While only having his positioning as an issue)

[Dyvid]

To retort to this I merely point to Demi-Bahamut.

Demi-Bahamut works in an MMO setting. It also brings some of the feeling of having a powerful summon doing powerful things.

Demi-Bahamut is SMN's one saving grace.

More Demi's and less Egi's would be ideal.

Even that FFVIII summon, is literally what Demi-Bahamut does. Where he casts Wyrmwave on your target and you have Akh Morn to have him use. Sure, there's not a 5 day wind up culminating in a nuclear explosion, but you get a MMO realized version of that summon.

Demi-Bahamut also bypasses a lot of the stupid AI problems that Egi's suffer from (While only having his positioning as an issue)

To retort I point to Demi-B

Demi-B is a pet that last 20secs, not a one and done spell. It will literally just sit there unless you command it directly or indirectly

Demi-B original size was problematic; That one guy in a movie theater..., Why is Demi Bahamut so big?. Make Bahamut transparent.

Demi-Bahamut suffers from the same A.I. problem as all Egis. He will prioritize movement over commanded action which makes him miss Demi-Enkindle.

Egi's do need a better design, but shrinking down Primals to Lalafel size looks odd at best. Up sizing them to point they interfere with other players is also bad. SE has to find the happy medium.