What is a "bad player" to you?

[Lilseph]

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

This attitude right here it's why you don't improve. And that's why people will keep "harassing" you in DF. Keeping people alive is the bare minimum for a healer.

[ltsquigs]

This attitude right here it's why you don't improve.

If they're clearing the content they are queueing for, why is it bad if they don't want to "improve" (which really means be optimal). Lots of people play this game entirely as a casual leisure activity, they aren't looking to be the number 1 players in their area, they're just looking to do the content for fun, and as long as they aren't actively hindering people from doing content I don't see why that makes them a "bad player" it just doesn't make them a raider.

On the flip side I have 100% had content fail because people got toxic over other people not doing their job "properly" and quitting dungeons mid dungeon, yelling at people getting them to quit, etc. That actively does cause people to fail content that should honestly never be failable and wastes everyones time. If people can't deal with the fact that not everyone has the same mind set as them in a game like this, they should go play single player games instead.

[Lilseph]

If they're clearing the content they are queueing for, why is it bad if they don't want to "improve" (which really means be optimal). Lots of people play this game entirely as a casual leisure activity, they aren't looking to be the number 1 players in their area, they're just looking to do the content for fun, and as long as they aren't actively hindering people from doing content I don't see why that makes them a "bad player" it just doesn't make them a raider.

On the flip side I have 100% had content fail because people got toxic over other people not doing their job "properly" and quitting dungeons mid dungeon, yelling at people getting them to quit, etc. That actively does cause people to fail content that should honestly never be failable and wastes everyones time. If people can't deal with the fact that not everyone has the same mind set as them in a game like this, they should go play single player games instead.

I disagree.

It's not about clearing the content or not, because yeah, you can spend 90 minutes in that dungeon and clear it, but I can assure you the majority of the players don't want that. It's about using all your tools. I beg of you, don't use extremes as an example. A healer that DPS isn't aspiring to become the #1 of the bunch, an elitist top tier raider that got lost in a dungeon with a bunch of casual. It's a player that realizes they have more buttons than Cure II and Medica and they want to support the party with these skills. It's the same thing than a DPS using their utility. Why should they do that? Their job is to DPS, not to regenerate your MP, not to mitigate the mob's damage, not to benefit the party with increased healing. It's the same: You have tools, use them. Healers have a huge arsenal of DPS skills and a lot of downtime when healing. So they can definitely pull this off. A tank doesn't have to remain at 100% of their HP ALL the time.

It is a bad player. I won't sugar coat this. FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WANT, they are not using their class at with all their available tools.

Reminds me of this meme:



Also, if you read the person I quoted closely, they complain that they can't improve because they get "harassed". But if you explain to them how the game has been played for the past 5 years, they snap at you, calling you elitist wannabe and throw a fit how "I play my way". They were lacking the "You don't pay my sub" for the full meme. The advice of asking people that want to perform well to go and do pre-mades work both ways, by the way.

[CarnivalNights]

I disagree.

It's not about clearing the content or not, because yeah, you can spend 90 minutes in that dungeon and clear it, but I can assure you the majority of the players don't want that. It's about using all your tools. I beg of you, don't use extremes as an example. A healer that DPS isn't aspiring to become the #1 of the bunch, an elitist top tier raider that got lost in a dungeon with a bunch of casual. It's a player that realizes they have more buttons than Cure II and Medica and they want to support the party with these skills. It's the same thing than a DPS using their utility. Why should they do that? Their job is to DPS, not to regenerate your MP, not to mitigate the mob's damage, not to benefit the party with increased healing. It's the same: You have tools, use them. Healers have a huge arsenal of DPS skills and a lot of downtime when healing. So they can definitely pull this off. A tank doesn't have to remain at 100% of their HP ALL the time.

It is a bad player. I won't sugar coat this. FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WANT, they are not using their class at with all their available tools.
.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

[Lilseph]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

No.

I meant the dungeon can take up to 90 min and still be cleared. I didn't imply that the healer contribution would make such an absurd difference. My point was that contribution matters, using your full toolkit is something that you should get used to, no matter what role you play. If you can shave 5 min off a run? Then why don't you do it? It adds up. Everyone pushing their DPS helps the party as a whole. You can skip phases that force a downtime, you can kill things faster before the tank runs out of CDs, you can help the melee DPS specifically to go ham on AoE damage and since everyone is helping, things would die faster before they run out of resources. You can even carry said DPS not contributing as much as they should.

See? This is my issue right here. Everyone is "memememe' and don't even think or they completely oversee the fact that their contribution is helping the group and, ultimately, yourself. Lack of teamwork was repeatedly mentioned here as a trait of a bad player.

[CarnivalNights]

No.

I meant the dungeon can take up to 90 min and still be cleared. I didn't imply that the healer contribution would make such an absurd difference. My point was that contribution matters, using your full toolkit is something that you should get used to, no matter what role you play. If you can shave 5 min off a run? Then why don't you do it? It adds up. Everyone pushing their DPS helps the party as a whole. You can skip phases that force a downtime, you can kill things faster before the tank runs out of CDs, you can help the melee DPS specifically to go ham on AoE damage and since everyone is helping, things would die faster before they run out of resources. You can even carry said DPS not contributing as much as they should.

See? This is my issue right here. Everyone is "memememe' and don't even think or they completely oversee the fact that their contribution is helping the group and, ultimately, yourself. Lack of teamwork was repeatedly mentioned here as a trait of a bad player.

Like I said, I'm not your enemy, I'm not disagreeing with you, but if a healer won't DPS, that's the least heinous thing I've ever seen in a dungeon, especially at max level. If a healer isn't healing, I'm not going to stop in the middle of the dungeon and lecture them on how to play.

It's a dungeon, I don't care. If this is end game content, then we have a different conversation. Your anger right now, is focused on the wrong person and direction.

[Lilseph]

Like I said, I'm not your enemy, I'm not disagreeing with you, but if a healer won't DPS, that's the least heinous thing I've ever seen in a dungeon, especially at max level. If a healer isn't healing, I'm not going to stop in the middle of the dungeon and lecture them on how to play.

It's a dungeon, I don't care. If this is end game content, then we have a different conversation. Your anger right now, is focused on the wrong person and direction.

Guess tones don't translate well into text. By no means I'm angry, I was just correcting something you cherry picked from my post. Also, the message goes to everyone, not just you. Because what you said, may be a question or a reply that some other user may have as well. Happy to clarify if there are blurry points in my arguments.

Personally and with all due respect, I'm not a huge fan of the "this is not savage" excuse for not using your tools. I am talking about all the jobs when I say that they should use most if not all of their toolkits. As a personal experience, it's not that it matters too much, I do politely ask the healers to DPS in dungeons if I see they are either standing still or spamming cures on me for no reason. While I'm running to the next pack I type: "Hey (name), feel free to DPS, I don't require much healing so you can go ham". Most of the time I get an "ok" and they start doing it. Too much, too little, I don't care, join us with the contribution. This is giving healer as an example because it's the topic we're discussing the most, but it also applies to any job with skills and utility that can benefit the group one way or another.

[Gemina]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

It's not really about that though. It's about being courteous to the other players in your group. When you do not have to perform the primary function of your role, this is considered 'downtime', and all roles are not created equally. What this means is that due to the nature of their role, DPS have zero downtime. They have some non-damage/supportive skills but these are typically ogcds that are weaved between their gcds. Tank downtime is when they no longer need to generate aggro. They acquire it quickly, and adding more enmity when it is not needed is a waste of their DPS potential, which is quite respectable in DPS stance. Healer downtime on the other hand, is when no healing/cleanses/raises are required. Without question they have the highest amount of downtime out of the three roles. What this all translates to is that a healer who stands around waiting to heal up damage is quite literally doing far less than everyone else. It just isn't cool.

Believe me, I totally understand wanting to heal and it being what you signed up for when choosing this role. But let me also so say this, content that requires a ton of healing is very stressful. Not only do you have to worry about the unavoidable stuff, you also have to take care of yourself and anyone else who takes unnecessary damage. When players are learning and having trouble with certain mechanics, this is the type of stuff that drives people to Homer Simpson levels of baldness. I love me a good schitefest, but there are limits to it. It is true that healer DPS is not factored into even the toughest of clears, but what this does is allows healers to help push very valuable and helpful DPS. It is greatly appreciated from all members of the group and will lead to the healer getting tons of comms.

My advice is to at least try. No one is expecting savage raid levels of optimization of your DPS kits with the exception of a few random doucherockets, but ignore them. Toss out some DoTs, stones, malefics, and broils here and there. It makes more of a difference than you think.