What is a "bad player" to you?

[Zer0]

I think the community as a whole often times labels casuals instantly as bad players.

They claim "Doesn't improve or won't" as a reason. Like half the posts here, but their definition of improving differs from the other players definition.

I've been yelled at and harassed as a healer for not doing enough damage. I was yelled at by tanks for keeping them at full health. That's not improving myself. It's not making be better as I want to be better. When I play a healer, I do just that, play a healer. I loathe magic damage with a very firm passion. My overall least favorite anything in the game.

As a tank, which I've stopped doing, I don't know most dungeons. I don't tell people either. Why? Because going into a dungeon you're forced to do at 58 and saying you've never been here and don't know anything about it just means half the group will leave instantly.


This community thinks that they're the greatest in MMO gaming, but they're not. They're in fact, worse than other mmo's. Because only in this game do tanks and healers get harassed for lack of damage in addition to their core role.

[ReiMakoto]

1. I've been yelled at and harassed as a healer for not doing enough damage. I was yelled at by tanks for keeping them at full health. That's not improving myself. It's not making be better as I want to be better. When I play a healer, I do just that, play a healer. I loathe magic damage with a very firm passion. My overall least favorite anything in the game.

2. As a tank, which I've stopped doing, I don't know most dungeons. I don't tell people either. Why? Because going into a dungeon you're forced to do at 58 and saying you've never been here and don't know anything about it just means half the group will leave instantly.

Just Focusing on these two things here.

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.
2. Ive seen this happen a handful of times in my many years with this game. The only time I see people leave at the start is some tanks auto leaven aurum vale, or people leaving when they inspect a tanks gear and see its an expansion out of date in the vault.

[Zer0]

Just Focusing on these two things here.

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.
2. Ive seen this happen a handful of times in my many years with this game. The only time I see people leave at the start is some tanks auto leaven aurum vale, or people leaving when they inspect a tanks gear and see its an expansion out of date in the vault.

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

[AxlStream]

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

Erm...If your only metric to being a good healer is "did people die?", chances are you are a bad player to many players. Tanks only need as much HP to survive the next hit, anything that pushes them over after the fact is meaningless except if it's to prep for a mechanic or such. I often go into fights without healing for 20-30 seconds at a time, relying only on my sustain from Storm's Path combo and mitigation rotated properly. I will concede that healers are usually reliant on how their party play to be seen as good but just going "nobody died so I'm doing great" is just doing a disservice to yourself and all your future parties and partners.

[Lilseph]

No, it's not. You only think that because that's what the world first guilds do and you're an elitist tryhard who mimics them.

No content but the very upper upper content at the given time relies on healer dps. It's been said MANY TIMES NOW by Yoshi P himself that no content is designed with healer dps in mind.

The metric to base yourself as a healer is simple, did people die?

I've died as a tank more time than I can count by bastard healers like you who focus too damn much on dps and fail to do their primary job.

You guys seem to think how low can you go is the healing norm.

This attitude right here it's why you don't improve. And that's why people will keep "harassing" you in DF. Keeping people alive is the bare minimum for a healer.

[ltsquigs]

This attitude right here it's why you don't improve.

If they're clearing the content they are queueing for, why is it bad if they don't want to "improve" (which really means be optimal). Lots of people play this game entirely as a casual leisure activity, they aren't looking to be the number 1 players in their area, they're just looking to do the content for fun, and as long as they aren't actively hindering people from doing content I don't see why that makes them a "bad player" it just doesn't make them a raider.

On the flip side I have 100% had content fail because people got toxic over other people not doing their job "properly" and quitting dungeons mid dungeon, yelling at people getting them to quit, etc. That actively does cause people to fail content that should honestly never be failable and wastes everyones time. If people can't deal with the fact that not everyone has the same mind set as them in a game like this, they should go play single player games instead.

[Lilseph]

If they're clearing the content they are queueing for, why is it bad if they don't want to "improve" (which really means be optimal). Lots of people play this game entirely as a casual leisure activity, they aren't looking to be the number 1 players in their area, they're just looking to do the content for fun, and as long as they aren't actively hindering people from doing content I don't see why that makes them a "bad player" it just doesn't make them a raider.

On the flip side I have 100% had content fail because people got toxic over other people not doing their job "properly" and quitting dungeons mid dungeon, yelling at people getting them to quit, etc. That actively does cause people to fail content that should honestly never be failable and wastes everyones time. If people can't deal with the fact that not everyone has the same mind set as them in a game like this, they should go play single player games instead.

I disagree.

It's not about clearing the content or not, because yeah, you can spend 90 minutes in that dungeon and clear it, but I can assure you the majority of the players don't want that. It's about using all your tools. I beg of you, don't use extremes as an example. A healer that DPS isn't aspiring to become the #1 of the bunch, an elitist top tier raider that got lost in a dungeon with a bunch of casual. It's a player that realizes they have more buttons than Cure II and Medica and they want to support the party with these skills. It's the same thing than a DPS using their utility. Why should they do that? Their job is to DPS, not to regenerate your MP, not to mitigate the mob's damage, not to benefit the party with increased healing. It's the same: You have tools, use them. Healers have a huge arsenal of DPS skills and a lot of downtime when healing. So they can definitely pull this off. A tank doesn't have to remain at 100% of their HP ALL the time.

It is a bad player. I won't sugar coat this. FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WANT, they are not using their class at with all their available tools.

Reminds me of this meme:



Also, if you read the person I quoted closely, they complain that they can't improve because they get "harassed". But if you explain to them how the game has been played for the past 5 years, they snap at you, calling you elitist wannabe and throw a fit how "I play my way". They were lacking the "You don't pay my sub" for the full meme. The advice of asking people that want to perform well to go and do pre-mades work both ways, by the way.

[CarnivalNights]

I disagree.

It's not about clearing the content or not, because yeah, you can spend 90 minutes in that dungeon and clear it, but I can assure you the majority of the players don't want that. It's about using all your tools. I beg of you, don't use extremes as an example. A healer that DPS isn't aspiring to become the #1 of the bunch, an elitist top tier raider that got lost in a dungeon with a bunch of casual. It's a player that realizes they have more buttons than Cure II and Medica and they want to support the party with these skills. It's the same thing than a DPS using their utility. Why should they do that? Their job is to DPS, not to regenerate your MP, not to mitigate the mob's damage, not to benefit the party with increased healing. It's the same: You have tools, use them. Healers have a huge arsenal of DPS skills and a lot of downtime when healing. So they can definitely pull this off. A tank doesn't have to remain at 100% of their HP ALL the time.

It is a bad player. I won't sugar coat this. FOR WHATEVER REASON YOU WANT, they are not using their class at with all their available tools.
.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the healer doesn't DPS while everyone else stays solid, that's at most, 5 extra minutes tacked onto the dungeon. 90 minutes doesn't happen if things are going right, even if it's slow.

[hydralus]

1. This is a damage centric MMO, you healing is designed to be pretty goddamn powerful to facilitate dealing as much damage as possible on healing classes, if you "just want to heal", I'd maybe suggest another MMO, or not playing healer, cos healers in this game are designed to deal damage. Doing more damage is the defacto way to improve yourself as there's no other valuable metric to judge by.

I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

In terms of the topic itself, first thing that comes to mind are people who refuse to use no-cost (as in an ogcD that doesn't reduce their output at all) aggro-reduction skills and strip aggro from the tank like you're proving a point that you're outdamaging their aggro generation.

[Woffy]

I just want to piggyback on this and ask the name of the MMO where you're a healer that JUST heals because I want to know where people got this weird idea you're supposed to do nothing but spam HP restoration skills. I've played; Asheron's Call, Everquest 2, Tera, Aion, Asheron's Call 2, Dungeon and Dragons Online, Neverwinter, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Wakfu, Ragnarok Online, Vanguard, Wildstar, Archeage, and at least a half-dozen other MMOs I've forgotten the name of. In not a single one of them was the 'healer' expecting to do nothing but heal. It's driving me insane, where is the idea that 'I play a healer I should only heal' come from!?

In terms of the topic itself, first thing that comes to mind are people who refuse to use no-cost (as in an ogcD that doesn't reduce their output at all) aggro-reduction skills and strip aggro from the tank like you're proving a point that you're outdamaging their aggro generation.

Just wanted to answer your question: Everquest.

And concerning Vanguard, yes you could play Disciple or Bloodmage (both healed through dps). But if you played Shaman or Cleric in a raid you didnt do more than buff/debuff and heal/shield. And if a raid depended on the dps of a cleric? That raid was doomed from the beginning.
Archeage you chose 3 different skill sets so no pure healer. Guild wars 2 didn't even have a decent healer until ranger, and that is still not a pure healer.
Tera Ive played Mystic so offcourse I dps:ed.

Anyway I played most of those games and then some and this is the first game I've heard healers must dps. In most (at least in older games) healers usually have dps for soloing xp, the healer is usually expected to heal/shield, buff/debuff, summon, rezz, aka your basic healer duties.

That said, I do dps as a healer in this game since there is to much dead time otherwise. But that is me, I wouldn't complain about a healer just healing.

As far as topic is concerned I'd say a bad player is someone who doesn't want to improve or doesn't care (no I don't place non-dps healers in this category).