Gender locked race?

[Shippuu]

If you want to play that game how about you first prove that a gender-locked race will be a major selling feature for the Korean and Chinese markets. It is not like that market is lacking in games with that feature. In fact, where is your hard statistical data that Square Enix re-introducing gender locked races (after removing them previously) won't have a negative impact on their NA/JP/EU markets? I see a lot of personal opinion in your posts but little in the way of hard data.

I don't have to prove anything because unlike you making direct statements that they did X because of Y in the past I was only proposing a theory as to potential reasoning for something they may or may not have done. I'm not claiming they absolutely did something because of other markets, but it could absolutely be a factor in the decision.

And no player race is a major selling point for this game's expansions. Stormblood did better than ever without adding a new player race. The good thing is the burden of proof is on you still to first prove that the game would be damaged if they added genderlocked races. It certainly didn't hurt FFXI's success, to the point they didn't change it when they first made FFXIV. It wasn't until that game failed catastrophically did they then use it as an opportunity to earn brownie points fixing it, to which then stating publicly they were open to a future genderlocked race with Viera specifically.

Besides, Heavensward didn't get damaged when they opted for Au Ra over viera. Stormblood didn't get damaged when they opted for Nothing over viera. Now Shadowbringers is coming, and it's bringing the viera that the vast majority of players aware of what a viera is think of when they think of viera. So yeah, its a pretty safe assumption nothing is going to happen except a bunch of whining.

[redcurrant18]

I don't have to prove anything because unlike you making direct statements that they did X because of Y in the past I was only proposing a theory as to potential reasoning for something they may or may not have done. I'm not claiming they absolutely did something because of other markets, but it could absolutely be a factor in the decision.

And no player race is a major selling point for this game's expansions. Stormblood did better than ever without adding a new player race. The good thing is the burden of proof is on you still to first prove that the game would be damaged if they added genderlocked races. It certainly didn't hurt FFXI's success, to the point they didn't change it when they first made FFXIV. It wasn't until that game failed catastrophically did they then use it as an opportunity to earn brownie points fixing it, to which then stating publicly they were open to a future genderlocked race with Viera specifically.

Besides, Heavensward didn't get damaged when they opted for Au Ra over viera. Stormblood didn't get damaged when they opted for Nothing over viera. Now Shadowbringers is coming, and it's bringing the viera that the vast majority of players aware of what a viera is think of when they think of viera. So yeah, its a pretty safe assumption nothing is going to happen except a bunch of whining.

Uhh you are the one who's always asking me to prove every single thing I say and now you can't back up your own nonsensical posts? You don't care about player character race but for other people it does matter, especially when its a race as popular and well-known as Viera. You only ever seem to demand evidence when people go against you, and now you can't be bothered to bring up evidence the one time someone calls you out. FFXI was ok in the context of the time it released in-things changed-and MMORPGs that repeated genderlocking have failed here in the West. No one here that I know of is playing games like Tera. FFXIV and WoW are what's dominating the fantasy genre of MMORPGs and neither game has genderlocked races.

Enjoy these male Vieras, whose artists didn't feel "uncomfortable" drawing:

[Shippuu]

Uhh you are the one who's always asking me to prove every single thing I say and now you can't back up your own nonsensical posts?

The irony of you calling anyone out about nonsensical posts is hilarous.

You don't care about player character race but for other people it does matter, especially when its a race as popular and well-known as Viera.

It's a good thing the players are getting Viera then. Considering only female Viera have ever been shown in Final Fantasy games that's exactly what we're getting.

You only ever seem to demand evidence when people go against you, and now you can't be bothered to bring up evidence the one time someone calls you out.

If you can't grasp why a hypothetical explanation for a decision that has yet to happen is different than claiming something absolutely happened without evidence than I can't help you there. I've provided more than enough evidence for plenty of claims I've made when asked.

FFXI was ok in the context of the time it released in-things changed-and MMORPGs that repeated genderlocking have failed here in the West.

For one, there's a big difference between releasing a genderlocked race that can play everything, and a game where the genderlocking is tied to actual gameplay elements/classes. Two, once again, you'd be hard pressed to prove that was why those games did poorly (and even then, to what extent is it them failing? Tera is still around, and it came out in 2012 in the West. Black Deserts is still around, as is Vindictus (2010). Upcoming big western developed MMO Darkfall, which earned a lot in crowdfunding has gender and race locked classes.
Wildstar(2014) didn't have gender locking, and even had an animal eared race where the males were smaller than the females (Like a lot of people seem to want for Viera). Is that game still around?
Other MMO's (debatably) failing that happened to have gender locks isn't proof that gender locks ruin a game, especially when those games had many other issues( Even then, most of those game's genderlocking is of a worse kind, tying it to actual playable content in the form of restricting classes). Just like me using Wildstar as an example of an (actual) failed MMO isn't proof that having an animal eared race ruins MMO's.

[Karl0217]

I don't have to prove anything because unlike you making direct statements that they did X because of Y in the past I was only proposing a theory as to potential reasoning for something they may or may not have done. I'm not claiming they absolutely did something because of other markets, but it could absolutely be a factor in the decision.

So in other words you just want to attack and not have to actually defend any of the statements you made? Can't say I am surprised that you demand hard evidence from your opponents but are incapable of providing it for your arguments.

And no player race is a major selling point for this game's expansions.

How odd, in this post:

People keep going on like only the JP/NA/EU player's desires/tastes count. They seem to be forgetting the large player bases in the Korean and Chinese markets. People often talk about how genderlocking is a staple of Korean MMO's, so new genderlocked races couldn't possibly be catering to that crowd? Especially when those are areas they would likely look to be increasing their playerbase even more as they may have reached a plateau in the NA/EU/JP regions.

you went and implied that it would be a major selling point in the Chinese and Korean markets. Now you are saying it is not. Which is it?

Besides, Heavensward didn't get damaged when they opted for Au Ra over viera. Stormblood didn't get damaged when they opted for Nothing over viera. Now Shadowbringers is coming, and it's bringing the viera that the vast majority of players aware of what a viera is think of when they think of viera. So yeah, its a pretty safe assumption nothing is going to happen except a bunch of whining.

Difference in this situation being that we know they did development work on male Viera; remember that concept art? We have seen male/female Viera options referenced in the code via that bug. We have seen lore dumps on male Viera in game. We have hard evidence that male Viera were being developed in game. The onus is on you to provide hard evidence and arguments as to why development work on them was abandoned and not simply make 'what if' claims based on personal opinions and bias.

[Tharne]

Difference in this situation being that we know they did development work on male Viera; remember that concept art? We have seen male/female Viera options referenced in the code via that bug. We have seen lore dumps on male Viera in game. We have hard evidence that male Viera were being developed in game. The onus is on you to provide hard evidence and arguments as to why development work on them was abandoned and not simply make 'what if' claims based on personal opinions and bias.

Concept art =/= developed in-game. Also a lot of concepts end up not being used, that the point of a concept. The male/female in the code could possibly be for security.
And yes the lore dumps, Yoshida said that they gave some hints inside. After reading them for the first time yesterday and having no positive nor negative feeling toward the male Viera subject, the one line that stuck out in this lore dump was the last one : "They simply do not exist to us."

[Lacan]

Concept art =/= developed in-game. Also a lot of concepts end up not being used, that the point of a concept. The male/female in the code could possibly be for security.
And yes the lore dumps, Yoshida said that they gave some hints inside. After reading them for the first time yesterday and having no positive nor negative feeling toward the male Viera subject, the one line that stuck out in this lore dump was the last one : "They simply do not exist to us."

I really don't think you can use that line to say we aren't getting the males though. It just further describes their culture. They wanted to emphasis how reclusive the race is. The females are reclusive, and the males are even more so. I don't see why they would go into detail about how the males operate at all if they were going to just exclude them entirely like that.

[Karl0217]

Concept art =/= developed in-game. Also a lot of concepts end up not being used, that the point of a concept. The male/female in the code could possibly be for security.
And yes the lore dumps, Yoshida said that they gave some hints inside. After reading them for the first time yesterday and having no positive nor negative feeling toward the male Viera subject, the one line that stuck out in this lore dump was the last one : "They simply do not exist to us."

When he said the line "They simply do not exist to us" he was talking specifically about his time in Dalamasca. Full lore quote, not just the part that people keep ripping out of context:

I spent many a moon in the Desert Sapphire and while I saw all manner of wonderous creatures, not once did I lay mine eyes on a male Viera, nor did I hear of one living in the city. They simply do not exist to us.

He wasn't talking about the male Viera population in the entire world, just what the population was specifically in Dalamasca. It has the same importance as somebody in Ul'Dah prior to Yugiri's arrival claiming they never met an Au Ra before and saying they might as well not exist to them. I wonder how relevant a statement about their numbers in Dalamasca is to their numbers in their homelands.

More to the point we are heading into Viera Territory, the Ra'Tika Greatwood, next expansion. Territory that the same lore dump says that all the male Viera guard and shoot outsiders on-sight when they enter. You really think we are not going to run into any hostile male Viera NPCs, who all serve as the border patrol and swear not to let evil encroach on said territory, while waltzing through the Greatwood after somebody, probably the Imperial Garlean Army, leveled one of their villages?

As for the concept art, the thing you are overlooking is that the female version of the concept art was used in the game.

[cicatriz313]

When he said the line "They simply do not exist to us" he was talking specifically about his time in Dalamasca. Full lore quote, not just the part that people keep ripping out of context:



He wasn't talking about the male Viera population in the entire world, just what the population was specifically in Dalamasca.


As for the concept art, the thing you are overlooking is that the female version of the concept art was used in the game.

You can't say read the full lore and ignore the 3 statements the dramaturge makes before that one. He literally says the males don't even meet with their kin aside from breeding. They live alone and one would be foolish to go seek them, because you wouldn't see one (or you'd be killed.) People are focusing on this death part but it doesn't make the first part meaningless. It's not just Dalmasca he's talking about he's making a statement about society in general and using Dalmasca because this is supposed to be an avatar of Matsuno.

No one is overlooking the fact that they use a similar model as one of the concept art pieces to create Viera. Like of course they did. That's the point of concept art. You're just choosing to completely ignore the other pieces of concept art revealed in that same panel that show that they don't use everything they showed...

[Gwenorai]

You can't say read the full lore and ignore the 3 statements the dramaturge makes before that one. He literally says the males don't even meet with their kin aside from breeding. They live alone and one would be foolish to go seek them, because you wouldn't see one (or you'd be killed.) People are focusing on this death part but it doesn't make the first part meaningless. It's not just Dalmasca he's talking about he's making a statement about society in general and using Dalmasca because this is supposed to be an avatar of Matsuno.

No one is overlooking the fact that they use a similar model as one of the concept art pieces to create Viera. Like of course they did. That's the point of concept art. You're just choosing to completely ignore the other pieces of concept art revealed in that same panel that show that they don't use everything they showed...

He also talks in past tense, states that before all of this if you left the wood you were a Viera no longer. Times have changed however and that's no longer the case. It also states that a Viera can seek the aid of outsiders if the forest/their people are in danger. The men leave not because they want to but out of necessity. They are the first line of defence and most of the time, the last.

You don't go into those woods looking for a male Viera - I think that's just him adding in 'drama'. Fact is if you go into those woods you're probably going to die unless you are escorted by a Viera or have their blessing.

I really don't understand why people are getting confused about the 'They do not exist to us' part. It's an old saying of course and not what we use today. But it's how someone describes an object/person/place that is known to exist by hearsay but hasn't been seen by any outsiders; and if they have, they haven't survived to relay the tale.

Example; a tribe on an island that hasn't been inhabited by the modern world. They have customs and their own religion. We will never make contact with them and only a handful will see them. We know they exist by hearsay, secondhand experience and obvious physical evidence. But, they're not on our radar, they are air and only matter to those who actually go and seek them out. Those who do try to seek them out end up attacked and killed.
This is a true scenario btw, there's a place like this - forgot the islands name though. Give it a google.

Let's switch back to Viera; you can see the similarities. Hearsay is the females talking about them; secondhand experience is the females again. The evidence is the young kits and the corpses of the fools that tried to cause the jungle/wood harm and were killed.

Now let's break it down.
Lore states they exist; he goes on to say they exist.
He then goes 'they do not exist to us'
It's either one or the other buddy, there is no in-between. Dramaturge is just being dramatic, hence his title. Either that or he's drunk.

[cicatriz313]

Now let's break it down.
Lore states they exist; he goes on to say they exist.
He then goes 'they do not exist to us'
It's either one or the other buddy, there is no in-between. Dramaturge is just being dramatic, hence his title. Either that or he's drunk.

No one is saying they don't exist though. The lore does state they exist. The lore also makes it pretty obvious that they are less likely to interact with us than female Viera. Now I don't know about you, but I think lore that explicitly states how separated male Viera is, months before Viera launches, which Yoshi apparently explicitly stated to look at, is more indicative of no PLAYABLE male Viera, than indicative of them being playable. They could exist in game lore and yet not be playable.