Male Viera (BunBros) - We Want Them - With Heels!

[LineageRazor]

Whether it involves actual high-heel shoes or not, if females have digitigrade feet, the men should, too. It'd just look WEIRD otherwise.

And the debate as to whether or not there even BE male Viera or not is puzzling. They went to a lot of trouble to develop lore for them in-game, and the most likely reason for this is because they knew players would be playing them eventually. ALSO in the lore is the fact that, whatever the traditional Viera values are, more and more Viera are leaving those values behind, leaving the wood and the Green Word, and moving to cities. Very likely, males are choosing this path, as well - even if males keep to themselves in the Viera homeland, there's no guarantee they will once they move to the city!

I still feel like Au Ri women came out looking too much "waifu" when compared to the men y'know?

It's been a while, so I may be misremembering, but didn't Yoshi P literally come out and say that Au Ra females were designed around the "moe" aesthetic? Or, for those unfamiliar with the term, characters to be coddled, nurtured, and protected? They were basically designed to be waifus from the ground up! XD

[TarynH]

even if males keep to themselves in the Viera homeland, there's no guarantee they will once they move to the city!

And a certain fire in the trailer might have a say in the matter as well.

[Iscah]

Well mainly digitigrade is mostly due to how the figure is balanced birds have hip joints to help with their walking in locomotion and for the most part, it's limited to walking birds, rarely bipedal animals. The gravity would hurt, and animals like ostriches have splayed feet to help with weight distribution.

For something human, you have to understand form and balance -

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jiDfpmoKX...wingNotes1.jpg (Michael Hampton)

The heel does help balance it out but I definitely wouldn't say it's a comfortable solution as a stiletto.

I've seen this - https://i.pinimg.com/originals/29/a6...f1bab082db.jpg

For a properly digitigrade humanoid, the body can still be balanced, it just changes where that balance lies.

For the example figures viewed side-on, the central "line of balance" sits over the middle of the foot.

Again experimenting with going into the pose myself, digitigrade stance shifts that line forwards - I think so it's over the front part of the foot that's still touching the ground. You don't stay standing straight - it's a slight crouch with knees bent to shift the rest of your body weight into a balanced position.

And I don't think the in-game Viera are doing that. They're shaped like a human wearing high heels and still standing upright, not in the actual stance that should be necessary for it to be practical. "Form over function" - it really looks like the worst thing to be wearing as a jungle warrior.

The concept-art males seem better - they've got more of the forward-shifted stance to balance properly on the front part of their feet.

But i kinda hope we don't get another Au Ra situation with the Vieras. I still feel like Au Ri women came out looking too much "waifu" when compared to the men y'know? Men are these really tall and fierce looking beefcakes. And then the females have what half their height and look really delicate. Like sexual dimorphism is absolutely fine but i feel like they could've done it better (like they did with FemRoe).

I agree. It seems strange to me that Au Ra in general, and most of the few prominent female characters (Yugiri, Sadu, job quest characters) are strong, capable warrior types - and yet, even moreso than their physical design, their animations are very "cutesy" and seem designed to suit players being social with their cute dragon girl, rather than the race's actual lore. I can understand why they want it that way, but it still seems disappointing from a storytelling approach. I suspect it might also be frustrating for the script writers who need to set character emotes, because it would make it more difficult to find ones that suit the NPC's personality.


The more I think on it, the more it seems like Au Ra 'absorbed' parts of the Viera concept from when they were both being brainstormed together (and Au Ra won), and now Viera are being introduced.... still with that same lore concept. Fierce tribal warriors, dainty-looking women, powerful men - whether we get to see them or not.

And from a design standpoint, my hypothetical male Viera would probably end up in a similar space to the Au Ra I made... except I was trying to make him look un-fierce, and I'd probably be trying to go the opposite direction with the Viera. I wonder where they'd overlap...?

but... crazy thought here... what if jp fanfest we get dancer as the job reveal... and its a male viera showing it off. and if you know your FF it wouldnt be the first time a dancer has turned out to be male so itd be a sort of fun easter egg to see

I could see that looking really impressive!

Not to say that you shouldn't be able to make masculine male viera but having a more feminine one as an option either by clan or face would be nice.

I think there's definitely good potential to have one face design that is a bit 'softer' if not specifically feminine, especially once you play around with customisation. Au Ra are similar.

The relevance is the Mithra race, on which the Miqote were based, is a female only race (as far as playable). And I was asking if it would be so awful to have a female only race like that, because he brought them up.

The OP didn't mention Mithra at all. I searched the topic to check. They were only brought up in Enkidoh's post explaining why FFXI got gender-locked races in the first place. (Technical limitations, basically - to fit "two races in the space of one" so they could have more races overall. I do suspect FFXIV is heading towards similar limitations - I think the actual programming limit would be eight races - which might be an actual reason for getting a split race if they're doing that. Leaving one slot for a final extra race sometime in the future.)

And even so, it's still a very long jump from "I want this male counterpart to the female Viera" to interpreting that as saying "females really aren't worth having in game if there are no males", as you put it.

You can appreciate a character/race and their place in the game without wanting to play as them. I have no interest in playing as several of the existing races, but that doesn't mean they don't have value. They're just not for me. But they're still characters in the story and lore, I have no problem with them existing, and that's entirely disconnected from whether I'd want to play as the race or not.

The other thing with Viera is that even if we did have playable male and female characters, the established lore for NPCs would make it clear that we can't expect to see males as NPCs even if we can play as them. Female Viera would still stand alone as strong warriors who don't associate with males beyond the occasional mating.

Can't jus everyone block the troll and patiently wait for male viera reveal on JP fan fest?

I feel like it's better to not block people unless they're posting something really horrendous - and for that matter not assume "troll" unless someone is long-term disruptive. I feel like it's better to be aware of everything that's being said in a conversation.

[TarynH]

The OP didn't mention Mithra at all.

You're right. They didn't. They mentioned Miqote being initially gender-locked. And the reasoning behind it was because of the Mithra, and initial 1.0 transition SE had decided. Which I didn't touch upon in great detail, because of the previous post by Enkidoh. I only mentioned FFXI.

[Crushnight]

Snip

i haven't read through the thread yet and i will do after posting from my understanding the male Viera lore is very similar to male Miqo'te lore while 1.x had miqo'te gender locked to female only in 2.x the devs decided to allow players to play male miqo'te as well while they kept the same base lore for them and adding to it from there so as far as i see it if the devs wanted to gender lock a race they should've added lore like ff11 Galka where they are percieved a gender without having an actual gender anyone who uses lore for a reason why male viera should not be playable should look at the army of catbois and come back to me :P

Gender locking at this stage also makes no sense from a player satisfaction level or a business level there is nothing else SE can add that would be more requested than male viera at this point adding anything else would be way too big a risk and if they take that risk it will not pay off SE does have full creative control on male viera whereas female viera have been depicted before so they might be taking their time with it my hope is that they will be revealed at jp fan fest as i really wanna be a bunboi >_<

that was a lot to get through but can make a better comment people want to play male for the same reason people want to play female for the aesthetic of it nothing more nothing less OP put their more specific version they like as a wish to see male vieras to go. If SE decides not to include male viera no alternative they could offer will be satisfactory enough to compensate, male vieras are the 2nd most requested new playable race after female vieras when people asked for Vieras most people were asking for both male and females gender locking would be a slap in the face for all players who wanted to be male vieras and their is no adequate reason as to why they should not be implemented.

[QT_Melon]

They play the victim card in the OP's stead. Yes, that poor OP that has not been victimized at all, and who I feel is quite capable of being able to post too.

Well yeah, while you did apologize later about the social justice remark, you made several reaching arguments that didn't need to be made period. There's discussion but you were going far beyond that. Just because I said "poor OP" doesn't equal playing victim card, it was just unnecessary. But okay.

[QT_Melon]

For a properly digitigrade humanoid, the body can still be balanced, it just changes where that balance lies.For the example figures viewed side-on, the central "line of balance" sits over the middle of the foot.

Again experimenting with going into the pose myself, digitigrade stance shifts that line forwards - I think so it's over the front part of the foot that's still touching the ground. You don't stay standing straight - it's a slight crouch with knees bent to shift the rest of your body weight into a balanced position.

And I don't think the in-game Viera are doing that. They're shaped like a human wearing high heels and still standing upright, not in the actual stance that should be necessary for it to be practical. "Form over function" - it really looks like the worst thing to be wearing as a jungle warrior.

The concept-art males seem better - they've got more of the forward-shifted stance to balance properly on the front part of their feet.




I agree. It seems strange to me that Au Ra in general, and most of the few prominent female characters (Yugiri, Sadu, job quest characters) are strong, capable warrior types - and yet, even moreso than their physical design, their animations are very "cutesy" and seem designed to suit players being social with their cute dragon girl, rather than the race's actual lore. I can understand why they want it that way, but it still seems disappointing from a storytelling approach. I suspect it might also be frustrating for the script writers who need to set character emotes, because it would make it more difficult to find ones that suit the NPC's personality.


The more I think on it, the more it seems like Au Ra 'absorbed' parts of the Viera concept from when they were both being brainstormed together (and Au Ra won), and now Viera are being introduced.... still with that same lore concept. Fierce tribal warriors, dainty-looking women, powerful men - whether we get to see them or not.

And from a design standpoint, my hypothetical male Viera would probably end up in a similar space to the Au Ra I made... except I was trying to make him look un-fierce, and I'd probably be trying to go the opposite direction with the Viera. I wonder where they'd overlap...?

Yeah you're pretty much in agreement with my thoughts. It's not that I think a stiletto heel is the best solution, but we got warriors in subligars, Pig Masks, slime hats, and New Year helmets with inu shibas with wiggly butts. So if the OP wants that design, I'm okay with it. If people want the crazy lingerie, that's fine too. It's nothing worth arguing about honestly.

But yeah the Au Ra did get a lot of that early concept art of the Vierra but those chicken thighs on the males though lol.

As far a digitigrade feet though, I mean the Wolf guys already have it, so do a lot of the beast tribes in the game in general. It's the common anthro/furry trope to pitch the legs forward like a quadruped. So I don't really care that much. I think in the realm of how the Viera stand (females) it just kinda went with the look. Design liberties.

Though if the guys have legs pitching forward like the beast tribes I can see why making armor sets working for them a bit of a nightmare. That's why so many of the game models look so odd (no butts, weird proportions) Unless they come up with a new system, but ...considering how people often say glamour is the true end game...

[LineageRazor]

Though if the guys have legs pitching forward like the beast tribes I can see why making armor sets working for them a bit of a nightmare. That's why so many of the game models look so odd (no butts, weird proportions) Unless they come up with a new system, but ...considering how people often say glamour is the true end game...

I get the feeling that the whole armor redesign argument may no longer be a concern. While they did "normalize" armor design for the original five races, that was in part due to the fact that they were under a horrendous development crunch. They were essentially rebuilding the game from scratch, and had to cut a few corners. Budget was likely tight, as well, as investors were justifiably skeptical given the horrendous bomb the original 1.0 was. Now, though, the game has had several years of rather impressive success. I could definitely see the devs having a lot more development wiggle room - such as the ability to redesign armor to fit an unusual frame for a new race, rather than modify the frame to fit the standard armor.

[Bright-Flower]

i haven't read through the thread yet and i will do after posting from my understanding the male Viera lore is very similar to male Miqo'te lore while 1.x had miqo'te gender locked to female only in 2.x the devs decided to allow players to play male miqo'te as well while they kept the same base lore for them and adding to it from there so as far as i see it if the devs wanted to gender lock a race they should've added lore like ff11 Galka where they are percieved a gender without having an actual gender anyone who uses lore for a reason why male viera should not be playable should look at the army of catbois and come back to me :P

Gender locking at this stage also makes no sense from a player satisfaction level or a business level there is nothing else SE can add that would be more requested than male viera at this point adding anything else would be way too big a risk and if they take that risk it will not pay off SE does have full creative control on male viera whereas female viera have been depicted before so they might be taking their time with it my hope is that they will be revealed at jp fan fest as i really wanna be a bunboi >_<

that was a lot to get through but can make a better comment people want to play male for the same reason people want to play female for the aesthetic of it nothing more nothing less OP put their more specific version they like as a wish to see male vieras to go. If SE decides not to include male viera no alternative they could offer will be satisfactory enough to compensate, male vieras are the 2nd most requested new playable race after female vieras when people asked for Vieras most people were asking for both male and females gender locking would be a slap in the face for all players who wanted to be male vieras and their is no adequate reason as to why they should not be implemented.

The lore angle for me is moot for another reason: SE is writing the lore. If we get to March fanfest and they say 'Male Viera don't fit the lore' I would call BS because THEY WROTE THE LORE and only put it in the game in 4.5 when they had clearly already settled on the new race(s) for the expansion. I would perceive that not as 'our hands are tied by lore' but rather 'we didn't want to make male Viera so we wrote a lore excuse to not have them.'

[QT_Melon]

I get the feeling that the whole armor redesign argument may no longer be a concern. While they did "normalize" armor design for the original five races, that was in part due to the fact that they were under a horrendous development crunch. They were essentially rebuilding the game from scratch, and had to cut a few corners. Budget was likely tight, as well, as investors were justifiably skeptical given the horrendous bomb the original 1.0 was. Now, though, the game has had several years of rather impressive success. I could definitely see the devs having a lot more development wiggle room - such as the ability to redesign armor to fit an unusual frame for a new race, rather than modify the frame to fit the standard armor.

I'm a bit skeptical because SE isn't exactly the best on technology where it counts, especially UI design. You also have the fact even interviews not too long ago cited the problem as well.

I am curious to see how the system will be updated come the Japan Fanfest since we are having other changes to the system.

The final concern is if you're going to warp armor to fit new body types, you'll still hit a backlash (if they don't adjust it) that people want their body types fleshed out a bit more as well. So "hey we're gonna do all this for X race" and not revisit the older races for similar adjustments may not fly well with the community at all.