Male Viera (BunBros) - We Want Them - With Heels!

[TarynH]

Is the "heels" phrasing what you're actually taking offense to?

Again, I'm not taking offense to "heels" in particular. I don't care if a guy wears heels, or if a unicorn wears heels. What I want is for the OP to clarify what they are precisely asking for here. Are they asking for a completely different version of the Viera that can just wear heels. Or are they asking that the male version be like the female version. Yes, they posted old concept art, but didn't specify they wanted something like that. And the concept art they posted has them without heels.

Instead, what I'm getting is a lot of people completely misunderstanding my viewpoint here. Thinking I'm somehow against guys wearing female clothing. Not at all the case. I don't care if male Highlanders get string bikinis.

So I'll try to be succinct here:
If male Viera are added, I want them to be the rugged, masculine, fight-to-survive, bottom dwellers that are talked about in game already.
I don't care what they wear after that. They can wear a leaf and tiara for all I care.
I do not want them to look like boobless carbon copy versions of the female. That does not fit their own individual established lore.
I want the OP to clarify what they are saying when they say, "with heels." Because some of it could be lost in translation.

[QT_Melon]

Again, I'm not taking offense to "heels" in particular. I don't care if a guy wears heels, or if a unicorn wears heels. What I want is for the OP to clarify what they are precisely asking for here. Are they asking for a completely different version of the Viera that can just wear heels. Or are they asking that the male version be like the female version. Yes, they posted old concept art, but didn't specify they wanted something like that. And the concept art they posted has them without heels.

Instead, what I'm getting is a lot of people completely misunderstanding my viewpoint here. Thinking I'm somehow against guys wearing female clothing. Not at all the case. I don't care if male Highlanders get string bikinis.

hmmm okay emphasis mine:

You can say I'm reaching on that, but I'm not wrong. OP is basically saying that female Viera just aren't good enough without males.

I don't think that was missed. I think people are taking offense to your reach. The OP didn't need clarifying, you just dug your hole and are seeking a way out instead of just apologizing for going to far.

[TarynH]

I don't think that was missed. I think people are taking offense to your reach. The OP didn't need clarifying, you just dug your hole and are seeking a way out instead of just apologizing for going to far.

I have no problem apologizing for how I interpreted the OP's post. I still think it needs clarification, because I still really don't get what he's asking for. I did not take anything "to(sic) far." I have not insulted anyone. People may think I have, but this is kind of proving my point. Language can be misconstrued. People can misspeak. Several times in this thread my phrasing has caused people to jump to conclusions about me. People assume. That's fine. I can communicate like a civilized person and try to clarify my own stance. I'm not going to play the victim card. But I have noticed some trying to play that in the OP's stead. I'd just like him to say something. I'm sure he's quite capable of responding as an adult too.

The thing is, I have heard and read things people have asked the devs to do, and their point didn't really come across.

Three in particular I can think of are the bunny suit for males. Most wanted a unique (different) version than what the females got.

Another is the whole glamour situation. Where people have asked several times for the glamour to be registered to the job somehow, not the armor the job is wearing. In other words, they would like the universal tank gear to be able to show 3 glamours for each individual tank. Each time that was brought up, they thought they just wanted more glamour plates.

The third was someone asking for gear to be dyed a certain way, as in the shirt can be dyed separately from the corset going over it. They really didn't understand this as a concept, and chose to just talk about the dyeing process in general.

That's why I'm asking for clarification. Sometimes things get lost in translation. When things aren't specific, it can cause quite a bit of confusion.

[Iscah]

Yes, they posted old concept art, but didn't specify they wanted something like that. And the concept art they posted has them without heels.

I thought the OP's direct question/statement "I'm assuming this image is still legitimate and accurate?" made it quite clear that they were asking for the male Viera as shown in that image.

It's not a long jump to understand that combination as asking for males to have "heels as shown in the concept art", which does indeed show them with unusually-positioned heels, even if that isn't the actual correct term to use.


And I don't think you've ever asked the OP to clarify what they meant by heels.

This was (the relevant part of) your initial response to the topic (#14):

But in all seriousness... Would it be so awful to play a female character? Why does it have to be male? Does it have to be male to be good, fun, strong, aesthetically appealing? Your goal is equality, I'm sure, but there's a hypocritical base to your argument.

And then your second post (#27) is, as far as I can see, the first time anyone brought up the "males as boobless females" image, and you seem to think that other people are asking for "effeminate bunnies" and you want them to be masculine. Then claim that the OP is saying female Viera aren't good enough, when they said nothing of the sort.

Third post (#32), you still haven't asked for clarification on the "heels" statement, but you seem to have assumed that he means "heeled shoes" because you remarked that they're removed on the concept image.


You're arguing against a false impression that you picked up from the original post, and (possibly) only you are thinking of. It's at odds with what the OP was actually asking for, and I don't think the conversation is even connecting properly, with possibly both sides filtering new statements by their misinterpretation of the previous ones.

Nobody else has asked for males that look like females, or proposed that they might look like females.

Nobody has said anything to devalue female Viera, just because they want a counterpart male version - specifically because they want a different design to the female one that has been implemented.

I don't even think anyone else is talking about what they would wear, except that heeled shoes might serve a practical function for a naturally-digitigrade humanoid race.

(I'm not sure that they would be practical, by the way - if they're built to walk that way all the time, they should be able to support themselves without issues. Try doing it yourself - your legs need to be a bit more bent to balance properly, but it's not that uncomfortable. I think heeled shoes would interfere rather than help.)

Another is the whole glamour situation. Where people have asked several times for the glamour to be registered to the job somehow, not the armor the job is wearing. In other words, they would like the universal tank gear to be able to show 3 glamours for each individual tank. Each time that was brought up, they thought they just wanted more glamour plates.

I think that's because it would require a complete rebuild of how the glamour (and possibly overall equipment) system operates. Inventory is notoriously complicated, and I assume they've rigged up the current glamour system to do the best they can within the framework of their hard-to-fix past decisions.

They've come as close as they can by letting you link glamour plates to gearsets, and it would indeed be helpful to have more plates so that version of the system can be useful. Right now there aren't enough plates to store designs for all your classes - especially if you want to do something like crafter glamours which would take up 8/10 of the current plates.

The third was someone asking for gear to be dyed a certain way, as in the shirt can be dyed separately from the corset going over it. They really didn't understand this as a concept, and chose to just talk about the dyeing process in general.

...and probably another item-design issue. Gear will have been programmed to store one piece of dye information. I have no idea how the system works, but I suspect it would be a massive undertaking to reprogram everything to store two dyes - and how each item needs to respond to those two dyes. Assuming they can even fit the extra data onto each item in the first place.

if you noticed in the art panel, they actually had parts of this pic in the collage, so im wondering if thatll be the concept for the males in general, or for the 'child/teen' model for characters similar to honoroit or astrid
[image]

That looks to me like concept art for an adult female, wearing similar clothing (particularly the leg armour) to what's seen on the other concept image. (Presumably for demonstrating the underlying body shape - those wide hips would have been an interesting shape contrast to the Au Ra-ish broad-chested males. Probably impractical for gear modelling though.)

[TarynH]

This was (the relevant part of) your initial response to the topic (#14):

And then your second post

Those are legitimate questions in regard to both of his posts. He said something about the Mi'Qote being gender locked, until the community asked; in his second post. So I asked if it would be so awful to play a female only character. I was legitimately pondering if having a female only race (character) would take the OP out of their comfort zone. If it would, then there is a slight hypocrisy to his base argument of wanting male representation for said race. In other words, he'd be comfortable having males with heels, as long as they came with the females. But not okay with having females only, heels or no heels, despite the lore basically saying they'd be female only. Basically okay with equal representation, but not okay with some representation. (Again, only going on the information we have now. I even said in my first post we might get male too.)

In other words: I have a female Viera, and I establish that females coexist with males, but the males are rarely seen and outside of mating choose not to be... EVER. Then I tell you, you can have the female Viera, because you requested a Viera. You tell me the female Viera is okay and all, but you really want a male to be satisfied. At this point you establish you are not comfortable with having a female only race. You probably won't touch the female. You most likely didn't care there would be a female. You just wanted the female to exist to get to the male.

So would you be uncomfortable if I told you that you only get the female? Would that completely ruin your day? Would you be more comfortable if it were male only? Or could you just be satisfied that they are female only, and move on? And if you can't just be satisfied or comfortable with what you get, wouldn't it be a little hypocritical when you imply that it's just not your cup of tea without the male counterpart? Because that implies that the female really aren't worth having in game if there are no males. But can't the females just stand on their own? Can't they be the strength and symbol of their race without males standing by them? (You could even reverse that, as I'm sure people would be against a male only race.)

That is what I was pondering at the time. I haven't posted in any other Viera threads, so the assumption of me targeting one, or coming in with an agenda is pretty absurd. This one simply confused me, and I'll admit that. Now I'm not even sure if the OP is talking about clothing or the actual heels on the concept art. Either way we're dealing with hypotheticals, and it could be interpreted in different ways.

[redcurrant18]

So would you be uncomfortable if I told you that you only get the female? Would that completely ruin your day? Would you be more comfortable if it were male only? Or could you just be satisfied that they are female only, and move on? And if you can't just be satisfied or comfortable with what you get, wouldn't it be a little hypocritical when you imply that it's just not your cup of tea without the male counterpart? Because that implies that the female really aren't worth having in game if there are no males. But can't the females just stand on their own? Can't they be the strength and symbol of their race without males standing by them? (You could even reverse that, as I'm sure people would be against a male only race.)

I don't want a male only race and I don't want a female only race. Gender locked races are a thing of the past and yeah, I wouldn't play as a female Viera because I only feel like playing male characters and no amount of hype is going to convince me to fantasia into a female only race. It is not happening. And no, female only Viera are not worth it because we deserve full fledged races with both genders and both clans. All of this nonsense about "standing on their own" or being "the symbol of their race" is ridiculous. It was horrible when they did it with Miquotes and Roegadyn and it certainly wouldn't be popular if they did so now.

[TarynH]

I don't want a male only race and I don't want a female only race. Gender locked races are a thing of the past and yeah, I wouldn't play as a female Viera because I only feel like playing male characters and no amount of hype is going to convince me to fantasia into a female only race. It is not happening. And no, female only Viera are not worth it because we deserve full fledged races with both genders and both clans. All of this nonsense about "standing on their own" or being "the symbol of their race" is ridiculous. It was horrible when they did it with Miquotes and Roegadyn and it certainly wouldn't be popular if they did so now.

All of that "nonsense" was my own musing and thoughts while responding to OP. I even stated as much. But it's nice to have a response to it. Thanks. :P

[Iscah]

Those are legitimate questions in regard to both of his posts. He said something about the Mi'Qote being gender locked, until the community asked; in his second post. So I asked if it would be so awful to play a female only character.

I fail to see the relevance of those two things.

Miqo'te are the best example for him to bring up of why fans should (or at least feel they need to) directly ask for male Viera. That is, the previous race of characters with cute furry animal ears that the developers thought should be female-only, until their audience asked them to change it because they really wanted male characters as well.

"I like this male character design and want it in the game" doesn't instantly mean "the female design isn't good enough, I need a male design too". It just means they want the male character because it's a good design, and the developers have thus-far shown no indication that they're implementing it.

The enjoyment-or-not of playing as a female-only-race Viera versus a female Viera with a male counterpart is irrelevant. It doesn't sound like OP would be playing as a female Viera either way. Therefore, the question is (hypothetically) not whether the non-availability of males would affect his enjoyment of playing as a Viera, it's whether males will be available because that's a Viera character he would like to play as, but the females are not.

I was legitimately pondering if having a female only race (character) would take the OP out of their comfort zone. If it would, then there is a slight hypocrisy to his base argument of wanting male representation for said race.

In other words, he'd be comfortable having males with heels, as long as they came with the females. But not okay with having females only, heels or no heels, despite the lore basically saying they'd be female only.

You still seem to be assuming "heels" means heeled shoes. Or perhaps it's just what you were thinking at the time - which may (and I think is likely to) be the wrong interpretation.

And you're reading so many things into his post that aren't there. Not even in passing.

I can't see how "not wanting to play a female character" could make it hypocritical to want a male character design implemented because they like it.

And you're pulling "comfortable having males with heels, as long as they came with the females" utterly out of thin air. He never said anything like it. He posted an image and asked for them to be implemented still looking like they did in the image.

Of course he's not going to be "okay with females only" if he's hoping to get the male design which was both shown as a concept, and has been described in lore-text within the game itself - in a way that definitely sounds consistent with those concept sketches.

These are human-derived races, possibly via evolution, according to the lorebook. There are male and female genders. They exist, and it's not inconceivable that some males are going to choose to run away from that harsh cultural lifestyle that was described. It's completely justifiable that we'll encounter some.

(I have to wonder if the Dramaturge's text will change if-and-when they are implemented, to reflect that some have fled and become adventurers. Even if there are only females, surely he'll describe them differently!)

In other words: I have a female Viera, and I establish that females coexist with males, but the males are rarely seen and outside of mating choose not to be... EVER. Then I tell you, you can have the female Viera, because you requested a Viera. You tell me the female Viera is okay and all, but you really want a male to be satisfied. At this point you establish you are not comfortable with having a female only race. You probably won't touch the female. You most likely didn't care there would be a female. You just wanted the female to exist to get to the male.

Let's flip that over. Every race in the game so far has come as a "matched set" of two character designs, male and female. Some people will be hoping for cute bunny girls. Some will be hoping for powerful warrior types. Some will have been hoping for the cute bunny boys from that other concept art. All these calls together showed the developers that players want "Viera", so Viera should be implemented.

And now we get Viera, and it's only given one of the expected two designs, and only catered to half of the group that were hoping for its implementation - while the devs (hypothetically) sit back and go "see, we gave you the Viera you were all asking for! But only the girls because male bunnies would be weird, so we left them out."

Should people not be disappointed that they didn't actually get the thing they were hoping to get?

It still boils down to "this is a character type that I was hoping to get, and it could have been implemented, but now it isn't".

What makes it so special that Viera would be implemented as a female-only-playable race? Males still exist. You just can't play as them.

To me it seems just as "hypocritical" (or whatever the right word is) in a different way to suggest that the only way females can stand alone and seem like powerful characters is to completely segregate them from men. Do they suddenly become less strong if you introduce males to stand alongside them?

People are people, character designs are character designs, and some people will want to play as the male design which they thought was coming, but now might not be. The only thing it demonstrates is their personal taste in character type.

[TarynH]

I fail to see the relevance of those two things.

The relevance is the Mithra race, on which the Miqote were based, is a female only race (as far as playable). And I was asking if it would be so awful to have a female only race like that, because he brought them up.

Either way, that post was to clarify my thinking on my first post. Basically in response to your post, because it seemed you were trying to understand it better. It wasn't to continue my argument. But you can disregard the post anyway, because it's already been deemed as an "unnecessary wall of text," by the thought police.

[stormygabe]

(I'm not sure that they would be practical, by the way - if they're built to walk that way all the time, they should be able to support themselves without issues. Try doing it yourself - your legs need to be a bit more bent to balance properly, but it's not that uncomfortable. I think heeled shoes would interfere rather than help.)

So your entire post was awesome, but I want to zero in on this comment. BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT I THINK EVERY TIME I READ SOMETHING ABOUT VIERA FEET. Like...yeah yeah it's fantasy. But if they, presumably, evolved digitigrade feet, wouldn't they have also had the ability to support themselves without heels? (I mean...the heels were probs for the "appeal" but still.)