Please no more Eureka!

[Reynhart]

Only because it's always been delayed by one patch or two

That's the thing, they've stated that delaying the Relic weapon was intentional since the first Anima step as to not diminish the value of the Savage weapon.
Yet people still believe that it's supposed to be the competitive casual weapon when it hasn't been for years, and use that assumption to claim that they were wronged because Eureka was not the casual content they fantasized.

[Burningskull]

That's the thing, they've stated that delaying the Relic weapon was intentional since the first Anima step as to not diminish the value of the Savage weapon.
Yet people still believe that it's supposed to be the competitive casual weapon when it hasn't been for years, and use that assumption to claim that they were wronged because Eureka was not the casual content they fantasized.

I don't know why people think that if the relic weapon was equal to or just slightly under the Savage weapon people wouldn't do savage then. You could make the weapon in savage 20 ilvls higher than every other endgame weapon and I STILL would not do savage. People that do Savage are going to do savage cause they like the challenge. The Weapons and Gear are what keeps people going BACK to the fights. AND. Since the loot lock out is so strict in Savage MOST, not all, run savage with a static. They run it once and then they don't run it again till the next week. So you don't have people re queueing for the Savage content to help others or just for the heck of it. Do you think that because the Ultimate fights give weapons, that is the only reason people challenge the content? The weapon is just what keeps people doing the fight once they've beaten it.

Also it's not just the fact that it's meant for casual or hardcore or w/e. The Relic weapon is called that because of it's story. In ARR we were remaking a weapon from Heroes of the past, and then turning that weapon into the weapon wielded by the Zodiac Braves. In HW we were creating a new artificial life and trying to help it grow or come into being, and the only way to do that was to link the life into a weapon cause all other attempts at making said life ended in failure.

In SB our Relic weapons have no story... Went went to Eureka to find out why it disappeared. Not to discover so lost and ancient weapon. When we get there Gerolt says, "oh... maybe we can enhance a weapon with the elemental aspects of Eureka." And that's all we've been doing since the first steps... just adding more and more elements to it till the current weapon can't hold any more and then it gets remade into a new weapon...

For me personally I have always equated the Relic weapon of FFXIV to the Character driven weapons or the Ultimate weapons main characters get in single player FF games. Such as Clouds Ultima Weapon, Tidus' Caladbolg, etc, etc. I equate the Savage weapons to those secret weapons you can find in later games that may be just slightly better or have different abilities on them that may make you choose them over your character weapons.

In sort I want the Relic weapons to be more of a personal quest like in ARR or HW. I want more options to DO the relic. Don't like doing PVP? Do the PVE. Don't like Crafting? Run Dungeons. Bored of all that? Try Eureka for a little while. You balance out those options by making each one take different speeds of progress. For example, they "could" have given us different options of doing the relic weapon in SB such as dungeons, crafting, Eureka, Tomestones, w/e, but made Eureka the fastest route to complete it. People that like Eureka could do that, and the people that don't, could do it for other means.

[Voltyblast]

That's the thing, they've stated that delaying the Relic weapon was intentional since the first Anima step as to not diminish the value of the Savage weapon.
Yet people still believe that it's supposed to be the competitive casual weapon when it hasn't been for years, and use that assumption to claim that they were wronged because Eureka was not the casual content they fantasized.

Then why should I bother with it? It's already diminished by other much better weapons that you can easily get - crafting and primals for starters - so by making it "intentionally" delayed it doesn't magically become good, it still makes it worthless. It doesn't take months to grab a weapon from a primal: you need to learn the fight yes but that doesn't take months - weeks at worst - and as soon as you do, you only need to do a fight 10 times and boom, instant weapon that is better than the current relic. 10 runs of 10 minutes making your relic instantly obsolete. By your logic, primals shouldn't give weapons either and tomestone weapons should be removed as well!

But there are solutions for this (first thing I can think is just to make raid weapon/gear stronger by at least 10 ilvl ) but their reasoning for this is beyond ludicrous.

But hey if they want to stick with it by all means, I'll still keep skipping and grab the easiest alternative while you stick with your obsolete relic that it's now relegated at the job of "really expensive glamour". Glamour is the true endgame as we all know.

[Reynhart]

I don't know why people think that if the relic weapon was equal to or just slightly under the Savage weapon people wouldn't do savage then.

It probably has something to do with the early riot about the Zenith being the same ilvl as the Coil weapon. It shown that people were focused on "having the highest ilvl" instead of simply "overcoming the challenge".

Also it's not just the fact that it's meant for casual or hardcore or w/e. The Relic weapon is called that because of it's story.

Considering the Relic takes its roots in FFXI, the current weapon is actually the closest to the first "relic" concept. I agree it's interesting to have more lore tied to it, but I think it's actually clever to restrict the relic to a single content to open more lore option. Having everything simply be "more items bought with tomestones" is just really bland in my opinion. It's sad that the FFIII incarnation of Eureka was supposed to be this land filled with ancient and powerful weapons, and that we got none of it in XIV.

Then why should I bother with it?

You're the only one that can answer this question. I personally like doing the relic as a personal goal. I don't really care about how competitive it is.

By your logic, primals shouldn't give weapons either and tomestone weapons should be removed as well!

What I describe is not my logic, it's SE's reasoning. My reasoning is that capped tome should not provide gear, because it's an extremely lazy way to gain such a powerful gear. Also, raid, primal and additionnal content should provide different types of reward, because if one content gives everything, it just kills the other content.

But hey if they want to stick with it by all means, I'll still keep skipping and grab the easiest alternative while you stick with your obsolete relic that it's now relegated at the job of "really expensive glamour".

And everyone will be happy, then. And it's more mature that asking to remove/stop creating a content just because you don't like it when everything else in the game already fits your view.

[Voltyblast]

You're the only one that can answer this question. I personally like doing the relic as a personal goal. I don't really care about how competitive it is.

Already did: it's worthless glamour and I don't care about glamour, not to this point. Not when there are objectively better alternatives. Not when it's a waste of time.

What I describe is not my logic, it's SE's reasoning. My reasoning is that capped tome should not provide gear, because it's an extremely lazy way to gain such a powerful gear. Also, raid, primal and additionnal content should provide different types of reward, because if one content gives everything, it just kills the other content.

It's called horizontal progression and it basically means that you can obtain different kinds of gear that are all relevant and valid options to play the game. The game is fixated with vertical progression instead which is why the relic becomes immediately obsolete.
I'm not a player of ff11 but I'm 100% sure many can tell you how it works better than me, so ask them.

And everyone will be happy, then. And it's more mature that asking to remove/stop creating content just because you don't like it when everything else in the game already fits your view.

Yes because criticism equals to being immature, toxic and a troll we should be purged! if I could get a euro for every time I hear that...

If you don't want to hear criticism, don't come here? Forums are made for discussing feedback and other things and this is why I'm here, like many others. Are there trolls here? Yes, there are, but I'm not one of them, but since I'm criticizing something I'm already labeled an immature player so by that logic anyone who complains about the game is an immature troll. Maybe define your meaning of "being immature".

Keep on playing the game that you genuinely love and enjoy it as you clearly don't have issues with it: nobody's taking you out of it and nobody will tell you anything bad because of it. It's the opposite actually, I feel jealous because I wish I could enjoy the game as you do, but I can't: I'm here because I'm complaining about a game I put 5 years of my life into it and I want it to improve, but instead, we keep seeing it going backward and so many others think the same - or else we wouldn't have these threads.

Why are you here? If you're here commenting on us "immature" for our criticism rather than playing, it could mean that the game isn't so great, is it...?

[Reynhart]

Not when there are objectively better alternatives. Not when it's a waste of time.

Other alternatives are also a waste of time, considering the short lifespan of very item in the game. Even Savage reward are clearly not valuable enough since they are only slightly better than what you can obtain by simply doing your roulette.

It's called horizontal progression and it basically means that you can obtain different kinds of gear that are all relevant and valid options to play the game.

I've spent years in FFXI, so I know what horizontal progression means. This game is not suited for that, and probably never will. You can't have horizontal progresson when you have a mathematical best stuff, only stuff that you aren't able to obtain.

Yes because criticism equals to being immature, toxic and a troll we should be purged! if I could get a euro for every time I hear that...

Criticism is not. "Wa wa wa, delete Eureka because I don't like it" is. Especially when people claim facts based on nothing like how the whole playerbase don't like Eureka.

nobody's taking you out of it and nobody will tell you anything bad because of it.

What ? Did you actually follow some Eureka hate threads before ? Didn't you see the number of "braindead" and "white knight" comments directed at those who liked Eureka ? Here's an example :

You are just flat out wrong over and over again. I can see why you like Eureka so much and sit here reply to every contrary point Not really any point in arguing with you, so I'm just not anymore.

Yea, they're just trolling you. Don't feed them cause they'll only just continue to troll you.

Tell me again how this is "criticism"

2-3 steps at most used tomes until they made steps easier with old tomes.

You already posted that in another thread and it's still wrong. Exactly 2 steps of the Zodiac didn't require tome when released, and on those two steps, the first one didn't improve your weapon at all (Atma farm) and the other one still asked you to do dungeons and trials, so the same content that offered tomestones.

[Voltyblast]

Other alternatives are also a waste of time, considering the short lifespan of very item in the game. Even Savage reward are clearly not valuable enough since they are only slightly better than what you can obtain by simply doing your roulette.

But Savage rewards are clearly valuable enough to diminish the relic value by delaying it by 1-2 months, as you clearly stated?

That's the thing, they've stated that delaying the Relic weapon was intentional since the first Anima step as to not diminish the value of the Savage weapon.
Yet people still believe that it's supposed to be the competitive casual weapon when it hasn't been for years, and use that assumption to claim that they were wronged because Eureka was not the casual content they fantasized.

So which is it? Are they valuable or not?

I've spent years in FFXI, so I know what horizontal progression means. This game is not suited for that, and probably never will. You can't have horizontal progresson when you have a mathematical best stuff, only stuff that you aren't able to obtain.

How do you know that it wouldn't work here? Until they actually bother trying it we will never know for sure and your only reasoning is that "it's not suited for that" and "you have mathematical better stuff" without some proof? Does it really take a lot to insert more than 2 options of weapons and armors? Again this is the only thing I cannot comment because I don't have experience with ff11 but you're not even going to tell me WHY it wouldn't work here, so you're as clueless as I am whether horizontal progression could work or not.

Criticism is not. "Wa wa wa, delete Eureka because I don't like it" is. Especially when people claim facts based on nothing like how the whole playerbase don't like Eureka.

Then define criticism or something? Because I can probably look at the forum and on the internet for many discussions about how to improve eureka with legitimate good reasons for such changes. Are those criticism or trolling? And so what if I don't like it? I'm a troll for disliking it? And if you're absolutely sure of the player base liking eureka then, by all means, show me some proof: by your logic finding people who liked it should be easy, since the large majority seem to like it and only a vocal minority doesn't.

What ? Did you actually follow some Eureka hate threads before ? Didn't you see the number of "braindead" and "white knight" comments directed at those who liked Eureka ? Here's an example :

Tell me again how this is "criticism"

So just because some JERKS are actual trolling others for actually liking it, ALL OF US who don't like eureka are suddenly jerks too? That's so closeminded my head is imploding.

I'm not bashing you for liking Eureka (I have friends who like eureka and I don't bash them: are you going to tell me that I should?). I'm bashing you because you keep missing the point and white knighting way above normal levels about the fact that many people have made legitimately good points on improving eureka (like the synch that many were hoping for and more) and yet they don't even bother listening to negative feedback and only to positive, "because everything works fine". Many have said that Eureka has potential if done right but it isn't, many have said that it's fine to put Eureka if it didn't have relic behind it or more content. But just because you see haters and trolls picking on those who like it you just automatically assume we're all like this? I don't even know how to say but this is really dishonest from you.

I can only reply with my own post from before

Are there trolls here? Yes, there are, but I'm not one of them

Have a good day and I hope you enjoy Eureka in the future. I definitely won't but I know others will, and if it's true that the majority truly likes it then I'll just move and leave: you get to keep your Eureka - which you claim to be a huge success - and we get to play better games.

Just make sure you weren't wrong with that, or you'll get an even emptier expansion next year!

[Xtrasweettea]

How do you know that it wouldn't work here? Until they actually bother trying it we will never know for sure and your only reasoning is that "it's not suited for that" and "you have mathematical better stuff" without some proof? Does it really take a lot to insert more than 2 options of weapons and armors? Again this is the only thing I cannot comment because I don't have experience with ff11 but you're not even going to tell me WHY it wouldn't work here, so you're as clueless as I am whether horizontal progression could work or not.

Not here to butt into the argument, jut here to give some quick information about FFXI.

The game was built around Horiztonal progression. Some endgame events gave gear that had a few pieces that was jut usable for a handful of spells or abilities, while another even would have a few pieces of gear for other spells or abilities. Some bosses dropped one piece of gear that you would use for one weaponskill, beyond that one weaponskill, that piece was not as good as another piece of gear.

Why so many pieces of gear for a handful of abilities?

The answer: In FFXI, you could swap gear during combat.

In FFXI, to get the most out of your spells, abilities, auto-attack damage, and weaponskills; you needed to swap gear to max out the appropriate stats or skills*. One person would be carrying multiple sets of gear for one job.

Example: For my Red Mage, I had a

• "Convert Set"
• Bonus to Enhancing Magic Set
• MND based spells Enfeebling Set
• INT based spells Enfeebling Set
• Healing Magic set
• TP Set for solo (you had to build TP from 0% to do weapon skills)
• Elemental Magic set
• Refresh Spell enhancement set

That's seven sets, and only one of the sets is purely optional. Rest are for parties. That is just the armor and accessories, by the way. Some sets shared armor and accessories at least.

On top of the gear sets, I had a different staff for each enfeebling magic spell, based on its element (example: Slow spells were earth based, so a Terra Staff would enhance my accuracy with earth based spells, so Slow spells had a higher chance to land). That mean I carried 8 elemental staves and a healing bonus wand: 9 weapons on my character... for one job. This was just to do endgame party events. Weapon swapping was a benefit to mages but not damage dealers, since swapping weapons dropped your TP to 0%.

So, in FFXI, you were getting gear to do small upgrades for specific abilities, spells, and your autoattacks. You weren't just looking for BIS to wear 100% of the time until the next BIS. It was a different environment than this game.

*In FFXI, you had skills you had to level up on top of your job level. These skills included evasion, various weapon skills (daggers, axes, greatswords, etc.), and magic (elemental, enhancing, healing, etc.). Increase the skill increase the chances of doing what that skill describes (hitting more often with a dagger and harder with a dagger, dodging attacks, etc.).

[Reynhart]

But Savage rewards are clearly valuable enough to diminish the relic value by delaying it by 1-2 months, as you clearly stated?

For the Dev team, they are. But they seem to be oblivious of the item lifespan issue within the game and the sheer power of tome gear killing lots of other content.

How do you know that it wouldn't work here?

First, like Xtrasweettea said, it worked in FFXI because you could swap gear mid-fight, so you could have a set for very specific purpose. Remove that, and even FFXI horizontal progression would take a nosedive. Second, XIV's stats lack depth. Main stats are reduced to one per job and are simply tied to the item level, and secondary stats are nothing more that raw DPS increase. For example, Skill speed is supposed to increase your attack speed (That's the ingame definition), so, as a PLD, you might think that it could be valuable for more Sword Oath proc and faster build on the Oath Gauge, right ? But no, "increase attack speed" is simply "Change the arbitrary value that has nothing to do with speed into damage calculation for auto-attacks".

On the opposite, if Critical Hits worked like in Dragon Quest (Ignoring the Defense), you could have bosses with strong defense for which you would favors a crit set. You could have agile bosses for which you need more accuracy, etc...Elemental resistance could also be a big deal, like going into an Ifrit fight without Fire resistance should simply get you killed.

Also, in FFXI, there were very few damage mitigation and enmity modifiers, so you also needed to take that into account when choosing your gear. You couldn't simply pop Provoke and get back the target no matter what, so losing enmity even briefly could have a very disatrous result. Finally, there was no respawn mechanic and only a few Teleports. If you wipe, all the team goes back to their homepoint and have to walk all the way back to the instance. It means that surviving was a main goal, instead of simply stacking the most damage you can.

So just because some JERKS are actual trolling others for actually liking it, ALL OF US who don't like eureka are suddenly jerks too? That's so closeminded my head is imploding.

How did you get to the conclusion that all of Eureka haters are jerks from a sentence that's saying that your reaction is mature and makes everyone happy ?!