A question for the BLU peeps

[Melichoir]

I'll go with the "added like it is and then a full version of the job or a curated and balanced spell set is added to let the job be used in the full game at a later date" option.

Not everyone views blue mage identity as something that is so wrapped up in what the spells have been programed to do in any given entry in the FF franchise. Many of us would accept spells that gave a similar feeling and they could take on an additional function as well. There have been many blue magic spells that have gone through several iterations so what's wrong with XIV having its own versions?

This conversation is gonna go round and around again...

Ok.

It's not about the specific spells, but rather about how the class functions on Paper. ON PAPER, the class learns specialty skills from monsters. The skills learned are unique compared to other classes, because monster skills broadly are made to be drastically more powerful in the games dynamics. Bad breath, as an example, is not super Overpowered in the regards of a monster casting it on a group due to how the balance is set. This is because monsters, on average, are more powerful pound for pound than players are. This then forces players to group up and coordinate to take down monsters. HOWEVER, this same spell in REVERSE would be exceptionally powerful against monsters. Applying Multiple Status effects + damage to a large AoE is incredibly powerful.

To offset that power, you would have to mitigate the skills output. Remove much of its damage, range, and status effects to make it on par with other classes. In this case, Bad breath would probably have a range similar to Overpower, at most 1 status effect, and deal moderate damage. If it had more than one status effect, it would be given a long cooldown. You have to make the skills comparable to other classes in output. If the skill gets weakened down to that point, than bad breath just becomes a reskinned version of already pre-existing skills.

Ok so whats wrong with that?

There isnt anything wrong with that, but now you have to change up how the class functions. You have to start incorporating a priority/rotation system into how the class plays so the class has actual gameplay and challange. All classes have this to some extent. As a comparison, BLM has the Ice/Fire management among using CDs, RDM has hte Light/DRK system and its procs, SUMMONER has aetherflow and Bahamut gauge. The classes are designed to have a system to how the spells are used. BLU would have to have a system of that kind implemented.

What would that mean for BLU then? It would change what BLU is on paper. ON PAPER, BLU is a mage who learns its skills from Monsters and then uses those same said skills. However, if the skills are dumb downed to be on par with all the other classes, this becomes a super gimmicky way to learn your skills compared to all the other classes, and what it then does offer is just a new rotation/priority system for you to play. This isnt what people were asking for. People wanted to use Monster skills, and they did not mean that as merely reskinned versions of already existing skills. The argument to just "Balance it for party play" means making it just a reskinned BLM/SMN/RDM. And this ISNT what people wanted.

I honestly believe the biggest issue is people do not understand that to balance the class for party play would result in many of the skills being gutted. It's assumed that it would be "Easy" to balance the class and the devs are just lazy. This stems from people not actually thinking about how the balance would actually be handled realistically. Its super easy to say "Yeah Ill just reduce the damage and maybe knock off a few status effects and Bad Breath will be balanced", but in reality, a class that could cast a spell with multiple status effects at once in an aoe is powerful. Notice how NO other class has that functionality. And thats just one skill.

And in regards to "Create a solo play version" and a "Party Play Version", youre essentially asking the Devs to create two classes that happen to have the same name. Which is the biggest rub of all: It feels an awful lot like people who want the party version of blue dont actually give a butt about the class on paper. They just want a caster thats called BLUE MAGE for party, even if it ends up being a re-skin of an existing caster.

[Paladinleeds]

snip

Since I can't grab the full thing, I'll just snip it down. But with regards to the job gauge, perhaps there could be certain things that build up a job gauge, and the monster spells cost various amounts from the job gauge? I'm assuming that small blast of white energy we see in the trailer is the auto-attack, but why not make it a level 1 spell like "Jolt" that builds up a small amount of blue gauge (let's call it Blue Mana). Let's say 1 Blue Mana per cast. It can have up to 1'000 Blue Mana at any one time (same amount as TP). Different monster abilities will cost different amounts of Blue Mana. So for example Bad Breath could cost the full 1'000. But something like that sheep's sleep spell in Bardam's Mettle could cost say 50 Blue Mana. Then, it becomes a task of managing your Blue Mana. You gather mana and spend it according to the needs required. You could even limit it to certain spells within a group setting if needed.

I mean, this might be a total garbage idea, but it's a way I think it could potentially work.

EDIT: Note that I don't have any real investment in this class, I'm hoping for DNC healer, if I don't get that, will stick with WHM.

[jon041065]

Since I can't grab the full thing, I'll just snip it down. But with regards to the job gauge, perhaps there could be certain things that build up a job gauge, and the monster spells cost various amounts from the job gauge? I'm assuming that small blast of white energy we see in the trailer is the auto-attack, but why not make it a level 1 spell like "Jolt" that builds up a small amount of blue gauge (let's call it Blue Mana). Let's say 1 Blue Mana per cast. It can have up to 1'000 Blue Mana at any one time (same amount as TP). Different monster abilities will cost different amounts of Blue Mana. So for example Bad Breath could cost the full 1'000. But something like that sheep's sleep spell in Bardam's Mettle could cost say 50 Blue Mana. Then, it becomes a task of managing your Blue Mana. You gather mana and spend it according to the needs required. You could even limit it to certain spells within a group setting if needed.

I mean, this might be a total garbage idea, but it's a way I think it could potentially work.

EDIT: Note that I don't have any real investment in this class, I'm hoping for DNC healer, if I don't get that, will stick with WHM.

Hoping that dnc is a healer as well and a full job.

I made a short write up for how blu could be unique as a caster (and melee) in my thread here. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l-Blu-Concepts

TLDR: Give at least four blu spells an elemental affinity (fire,earth,water,wind) that you would use to spell weave 3 part combos. Put a restriction that you can not use the same element twice in a row and you could still have a potential 36 combos. Job gauge could show the most recent elements you have used so you don't lose track of what combo you're doing and then can have that fill up a bar that is spent on things like bad breath.

[Melichoir]

Snip snips.

Given what we know about BLU currently, its playstyle appears to me to be based around the following:

BLU will be able to solo dungeons (that is dungeons will not change any, but BLU will be able to go in at lvl sync and complete those dungeons). To achieve that, it will be done by having BLU grind open world monsters for their skills. These skills being much more powerful will allow BLU to enter dungeons and solo them. The difficulty will not come from learning a rotation or resource management system, but on HOW you use the skills you have. The focus of the job will to be to use monster skills to overcome challanges that normal classes would not be able to overcome by themselves. You will literally be tank/healer/dps all rolled into one.

Now this doesnt preclude BLU from having a resource management system (doubt itll have a set 'rotation' but rather a "If you are in scenario A, use Skills X, Y, and Z. If you are in scenario B, use skills T, U, and V), but that system will be secondary to the main focus of choosing what skills to use in the situation at hand.

My point was that to balance out those monster skills for party play, SE would have to directly nerf the skills themselves and probably in a substantial manner. In doing so, SE would oversimplify the class, which would then require them to expand on the rotation/resource management formula to add gameplay back in as BLU would no longer be able to solo content. This moves the focus away from learning monster skills (which is what makes BLU unique) and more into the class being in line with all the other casters. If that becomes teh case, BLU then simply is a wierd reskin of pre-existing casters, except rather than doing a job quest every 5 levels, or 2, or etc, youd go out and learn your skills from monsters. Which, btw, would have to be pretty easy simply because you cant RNG learning skills in party play because that would be a hamstring to the class. This was one of hte concerns, from my understanding, the devs were also noting - You could end up with players whos RNG sucks so bad they skip skills and are under skilled for content in comparison to other classes who can get their skills reliably every few levels.

You also cant have it where they allow a "Solo Play" mode and "Party Mode" because that would literally require designing to combat classes that both happen to be named BLU. This is because both would require different play styles to function within their respective content.

Perhaps there is a way to get BLU into party play while keeping Monster Skills at strength, but I cant think of a single way to do that, and I havent seen anyone effectively do that either.

[Hercub]

Given what we know about BLU currently, its playstyle appears to me to be based around the following:
.[/I]

I read your comment.

Doesn't this ennoble the Hunters Log? Maybe Blue could have it's own special Hunter Log that goes to lvl 80 Monsers. Hunters Log is great, but now it is relevant beyond experience.

Sorry I'm drunk right now. I love the game and the community.

[Beckett]

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Two things:
First; Of the hundreds upon hundreds of monster skills available in FFXIV, why do you assume that the devs will be forced to pick only abilities that will break the game?

Second; The same enemy skill is always going to have different stats for the player and the monster, that's an inevitability. Heck, it'll have different stats depending on which monster is using it, or what level the player is/what gear they have equipped. Saying that blue magic not being a 1-to-1 with the enemy skills is detrimental to the job is silly. Even the Limited version of BLU will be balanced for it's own content, not completely matched to the monster versions of the spells.

Okay, third thing:

The argument to just "Balance it for party play" means making it just a reskinned BLM/SMN/RDM.

Is Ninja just a reskinned Monk? Is Samurai just a reskinned Ninja? I cannot believe how often I see this nonsense get posted.