SCH needs some nerfs

[LiddyGhu]

Or allow Fluid Aura to give back some MP as it's useless normally.

Allow Lillies to act as confession stacks and make WHM the AOE heal king.

I think that's just it. WHM has too many dead buttons compared to Scholar. Scholar doesn't have a useless ability. Let's look at some facts.

WHM has these endgame buttons which are never used in endgame content:
Repose
Fluid Aura

WHM receives four levels of the same spell (Stone -> Stone IV) and two levels of another same spell (Aero -> Aero II)

Scholar receives three levels of the same spell (Ruin -> Broil -> Broil II) and two levels of another same spell (Bio -> Bio II)

Scholar automatically has an extra three buttons compared to White Mage because of this.
White mage also has two very lengthy cooldowns (defined as above two minutes of cooldown):
Presence of Mind
Benediction

Scholar has only one very lengthy cooldown :
Dissipation

Another takeaway here is that Scholar's Dissipation is more of a niche tool, whereas White Mage's Presence of Mind and Benediction are highly valuable skills that can't be used often.
After this, Scholar receives extra abilities from having a pet, but loses two abilities on Summon and Summon II.
Embrace
and

Whispering Dawn
Fey Covenant
Fey Illumination
OR
Fey Wind
Fey Caress
Silent Dusk

The simple disparity in the amount of useful buttons as well as the activity of their useful buttons will easily cause this imbalance between WHM and SCH.
With how Scholar has give or take 5 more useful buttons than White Mage, it's like they are an expansion ahead. Hopefully you all will look at this as something to change as well.

[LiddyGhu]

and allowing SCH to instead add a separate 100 flat healing potency to Physick or Adlo, without affecting the shield potency of the latter at all.

Why would they not just use Lustrate instead? We get 6 times that value with a different button, along with it not being tied to a GCD spell.

It could later be improved to affect AoE spells too, possibly, though I'm hesitant to do that on either class given their AoE damage is already fine as it is. It could, however, add more healing potency to Succor in a similar manner. Just boosting the flat heal and not the shield. I'm just reluctant to even do that without a nerf to Indom itself.

They already have both Sacred Soil and Indom, and more than two sets of AoE damage almost never happens within 30 seconds (AND if it does, sacred soil will cover more than one of them). They basically already have this function available to them in a different way, but stronger than what you're saying.

I'm afraid you're missing the mark on what we should do about it, unless if your goal is to remove useful buttons and add useless ones.
In my opinion, Energy Drain would remain a fully functional button if they removed the Potency on it entirely, without completely reworking it otherwise.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

I was thinking of Focus being the base ability truth be told. What I'd propose is something rather basic, like adding an additional 100 potency to your next Ruin spell, plus the current MP boost you already get from the current ED. This would then diverge via a trait gained at 30, allowing it to affect the next three Ruin spells for SMN, and allowing SCH to instead add a separate 100 flat healing potency to Physick or Adlo, without affecting the shield potency of the latter at all. It could later be improved to affect AoE spells too, possibly, though I'm hesitant to do that on either class given their AoE damage is already fine as it is. It could, however, add more healing potency to Succor in a similar manner. Just boosting the flat heal and not the shield. I'm just reluctant to even do that without a nerf to Indom itself.

A complete re-work as a buff? While not a bad idea (especially for scholar), that would actually mean a total re-work on summoner as they need to use three aetherflow skills to unlock their cap abilities from both HW and (6 total) SB in deathflare and demi-bahamut after two uses of 3 stacks of aetherflow. While that may not be a bad thing, I wonder if SE would go for it. Aetherflow stacks are a key right now to the rotation on summoner.

That is is the problem with two jobs coming from archanist, to look at changing its skills you effect not one but both. Also if you have nothing that eats away aetherstacks until 30 with bane, they would then have to be put onto a timer like greased lightning on the monk. That would totally change both classes into much more complex forms of themselves.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, but looking through all effects is definitely something to do. If the classes become unplayable at lower levels, that is something we don't want for people leveling them. I'm in the camp of sch is fine as is, get whm and ast more in line with it is better than nerfing scholar. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if whm and ast were on par, not whm lagging behind so far in end game content.

I just hope I don't get booted from a party like at the start of SB for being whm due to how much was taken from whm's toolkit with Shadowbringers.

[HyperiusUltima]

I think the remedy for branching Arcanist is simply add a trait at 30 that simply forces SCH to have a MP-only ED. Though, then we’d have to think: how would SCH spend stacks during downtime? The biggest issue is if SCH dies, they are going to have hell since they lose all their stacks AND they have to re-summon the fairy for healing/eat the fairy for stacks if they need Aetherflow NOW.

So by making ED a % MP gain, that allows things to be more forgiving provided Aetherflow isn’t on CD. It’d even allow them to have a better MP economy and give the power of choice since SCH has to decide how it’s going to plan out their stack usage in a fight.

[Thatusernameistaken]

Maybe something like a Discipline Priest from WoW could challenge SCH. It has a Shield that they give out that gives Atonement buff that when the deal damage it heals everyone with Atonement.

So maybe if we get the Dancer, it could have a dance that does the same thing. Like when we start the Dance we give a shield and as long as the dance is active some of our DPS heals the target.

Oh God please no. I was a Disc priest for 10 years in WoW, and the moment they introduced that tedious Atonement-spamming mechanic, I had to quit the game. There were so many ways to make a damage-to-heal playstyle work, and they chose the absolute most boring and monotonous way to do it. If SE ever decides to implement this playstyle, I hope they NEVER pull from WoW's current Disc spec. The old Atonement/Archangel mechanic worked just fine, they just needed to tweak the numbers so it wasn't OP like it was in MoP.

[Ftail]

Indom is just really dang good at what it does and is ridiculously useful, even if it's the first to go as we get more and more optimal due to that opportunity cost. The 45s AF change and potency buff just make it even better at what it was designed for, even though we have ES now and a 60s Assize as well.

The fact that it's such a generally powerful ability and is used infrequently at top levels of play simply gives more credence to what you say with the fairy. SCH is as strong as it is without constant Indom, yet if they need it it's still there. I'm always gonna be salty at Indom's kneejerk buff in early in SB cause it just honestly didn't need it, but what can ya do.

First let me start by saying that WHM needs changes to be competitive in high end raiding.

Indom can only be casted a single time once every 30 seconds. The fact AF is 45s doesn't change that. It's an amazing spell, that can be weaved in oGCD but if you are in a learning party with a lot of people making mistakes you'll soon be finding yourself using Succor the only non CD related heals available to SCH. I haven't forgot about Whispering Dawn, but that's on a 1min CD and isn't great if you need big heals NOW. If the group wipes because the cohealer died, and the SCH isn't able to throw out sustained burst healing like a WHM can, honestly the rest of the party is to blame for failing mechanics. But, I still get salty that WHM has Cure III, Plenary Indulgence, Medica II, Medica (no shields, so no having to worry about casting multiple succors if Emergency Tactics is Down), Asylum, Assize options for AOE healing.

SCH excels in groups that do the mechanics well and only have the rare occasional mistake. WHM feels like a special needs guardian with all the overkill healing options. In my opinion SCH doesn't need any nerfs, WHM just needs to be nerfed & buffed at the same time. Let's turn Planary Indulgence into a DPS spell not a healing one (or a buff that would help both healing and DPS), then lets boost the potency on Cure III, make it 10y instead of 6y and put it on a 20 second timer. For good measure, let's add one more DoT to keep track of to help boost that DPS more. My final idea is to turn Fluid Aura into a small group buff say 3% Spell Speed & Weapon Skill Speed Increase for Rdps.

[Mansion]

then lets boost the potency on Cure III, make it 10y instead of 6y and put it on a 20 second timer. .

Do you want agro? Because that's how you get agro.

[Ftail]

Do you want agro? Because that's how you get agro.

Then don't overheal, and being unable to spam it helps out with aggro.

Edit: Also, I'm not talking about a crazy potency buff. Maybe just 50, maximum of 100.

[Erudito]

Personally, I think Scholar is fine. Their kit of moves has a lot of synergy and it’s all very effective when used properly.

No, I believe the other healers should be brought up to such effectiveness. Not buffs, but more of a lore/logic centered rework.

To me, that is what Scholar did right from the start. From the beginning they took into consideration the lore (healers and commanders of the Nymian Marines which were all mostly Marauders/Warriors), applies logic to it and went from there.

What worries me the most is how they are gonna top it for Shadowbringers.

[Mansion]

Then don't overheal, and being unable to spam it helps out with aggro.

Edit: Also, I'm not talking about a crazy potency buff. Maybe just 50, maximum of 100.

Well, it is true even without overhealing. In a scenario where Cure III is more viable than Medica II (God Kefka's combo of Heartless Angel followed by Ultima upsurge for instance) ; you are healing with no overheal. Yet you give 25K-30K heal 8 times. In the beginning of a fight when agro has not been built properly yet, you will generate massive amounts of agro for sure. Buffing the potency of Cure III would make it worse. And that's just one special case, most of the time Medica II / Asylum is enough to heal party members. Even with a longer recast timer, if you can't deal with the agro yourself it's no use.

Don't forget WHM has no agro reduction abilities in its kit, compared to AST sects and SCH's split with its fairy (and overall healing design). You only rely on Lucid Dreaming, and its an agro cut, not a reduction of agro generation. I would actually get Cure III removed, it's too clunky to use and almost useless in the current setting of raid healing. But I agree that WHM would have needed some buffs somehow.