SCH needs some nerfs

[Grimoire-M]

Why would they not just use Lustrate instead?

It would still restore MP at the same rate that ED does. I don't get why you missed that. The only reason for it to affect healing potency at all is to give it a minor boost beyond simply restoring MP, without affecting SCH's shield potency at all. SCH already has a lot of tools to improve their shields. They don't need another. Their GCD heals, however? They could use the boost sometimes, particularly in ARR when the 150 potency heal on Succor and WD are all you have for topping off a dumb group. And there are still level cap situations where you have to toss out Physicks. Alliance Roulette's a good example. You can't lustrate a different party member. And the MP boost would help pad through the loss of using Raise repeatedly more than the Lustrate would, while the healing boost would help make up for spending Aetherflow in that manner. It's not good by any means, but it gives SCH slightly more reach in their worst area, without touching on their best. Most likely you'll simply use it on a Ruin II to move/weave later regardless. That's plenty. It doesn't need to 'beat Lustrate' in potency to be worth using when it already pays for 80% of an Adlo and a third of a res. It's something minor that would be appreciated in Alliance roulette and ARR more than anything.

DPS wise, however, it's still a significant nerf, because it only works on Ruin spells. Not Miasma II, not Broil II. Ruin II is the only DPS spell left on SCH's kit that it would work on. And as a result it is a 50 potency nerf per ED used in the best case scenario, which is one where you're specifically out of melee range or need to move for a long consecutive period of time regardless of whether you're in melee range or not. It's a complete loss if you were using Miasma II to weave them in as much as possible, because now you're cutting into your Miasma II usage in order to weave it in at all, forcing you to instead use Ruin II. You'll rarely weave Miasma II in at all this way, basically only when you had to use the potency of a prior SCH-Focus on a GCD heal instead, already have Bio II rolling, and have to move/weave, and are in melee-range, which is pretty restrictive as it is. So yes, it addresses the problem on all fronts. The only concern you might still have is how to spend all of that MP you've effectively gained from cutting out Miasma II, which...hey, you could use it on your expensive healing spells. Or just keep spamming Broil II. Either way, it's less damage compared to what SCH can currently do. How much simply varies from fight to fight.

A complete re-work as a buff? While not a bad idea (especially for scholar), that would actually mean a total re-work on summoner as they need to use three aetherflow skills to unlock their cap abilities from both HW and (6 total) SB in deathflare and demi-bahamut after two uses of 3 stacks of aetherflow. While that may not be a bad thing, I wonder if SE would go for it. Aetherflow stacks are a key right now to the rotation on summoner.

This is an ED replacement, with nearly the same functionality ED currently has for SMN's specific interactions. The rest of both kits are completely untouched. The only restriction it would need is for the Ruin stacks to only exist inside combat to prevent opener shenanigans. Hell the SMN-Focus trait could trade away the MP for the extra damage just to preserve their current MP values. Regarding Aethertrail, it would proc when you use SMN-Focus, like any Aetherflow ability currently does. It does not gain Aethertrail stacks when you expend the Ruin stacks it gives. All of the current SMN aetherflow abilities require an enemy to be present to work at all though, which cuts into your rotation during jump phases. This guarantees you can get DWT and Bahamut rolling on time, no matter what the fight's like, and lets you go for a Fester/SMN-Focus/Fester opener, which has the same timings as the Fester/Painflare/Fester opener but doesn't lose potential potency to speed it up. It actually lets you squeeze more into the current DWT. Bahamut is the only exception due to the way it interacts with your oGCDs, requiring a target to proc Wyrmwave, but it doesn't change up the core rotation much. You'd use it twice in your non-bahamut Aetherflow window (SMN-Focus/Fester/SMN-Focus) to get to DWT faster and use 3-4 stacks inside DWT for a minor boost of 30-40 potency every 2 minutes. If the Aetherflow lockouts were removed you'd be repeating the opener inside DWT anyways since Fester/SMN-Focus/Fester fits in cleaner than Triple Fester does, which is still 90 potency every 2 minutes over the current rotation for comparison.

The reason for the divergence from the base ability of Focus into two distinct Job-specific abilities is simply because SCH and SMN have different needs that ED doesn't help with, but those needs still share some commonalities. It's a slot worth replacing on both jobs, and functionally what it does is still similar on both, but tweaked to deal with their respective problems. SMN needs an ability to use Aetherflow on during downtime, and specifically needs it to compete with Fester to be worthwhile to use at all. SCH needs the MP more than it needs the potency, and I address the latter concerns above. Focus is specifically so Arcanist has something to do at a low level and ties it all together.

[Eloah]

Wow this thread is still going. Longest one I've seen of kind.

[loreleidiangelo]

Putting alleged "OP" or "UP"-ness aside, I do think that for a healthy game design moving forward both WHM and AST need to be retooled slightly so that their healing and DPSing feels a lot more natural and fluid like SCH's, or else this current healer parity will only continue. As someone else said in the thread, it's more that SCH's kit feels "complete" - aka innately designed from the ground up with the concept of "DPSing healer" in mind, from having a GCD and mana-friendly independent source of healing to their powerful oGCD substitutes to casted heals.

For a brief example, putting the differences in rDPS and utility aside, imagine how much friendlier WHM would feel to a DPSing healer if Tetragrammaton was given 3 charges with each charge having a 20-second CD. I'd hazard most would be fine with removing Cure II if that was what was required to keep the balance, even. Imagine if instead of lilies WHM had a passive aura that pulsed a 150-potency smart heal on the most injured ally within range every 3 seconds. Imagine if Cure III was now MP-free and oGCD but on a 60-second CD, etc. Even small changes for WHM like adjusting frickin' Aero II potency but making it a 30-second duration like every other healer DoT in the game would go a long way towards helping their overall fluidity (less time reapplying Aero = more Stone IV).

Alternately, if the game ever does a World of Warcraft-esque "stat squish" down the line, they could always use the opportunity to honest-to-goodness adjust healing modifiers and potencies relative to maximum health bars so that having a strong spammable toolkit of GCD-laden heals is actually a boon and not a bane, due to healthier healing requirements for content. *shrug* But if that's never going to happen, then the other healers really need to be made more "DPSing-while-healing friendly", IMO.

[HyperiusUltima]

Putting alleged "OP" or "UP"-ness aside, I do think that for a healthy game design moving forward both WHM and AST need to be retooled slightly so that their healing and DPSing feels a lot more natural and fluid like SCH's, or else this current healer parity will only continue. As someone else said in the thread, it's more that SCH's kit feels "complete" - aka innately designed from the ground up with the concept of "DPSing healer" in mind, from having a GCD and mana-friendly independent source of healing to their powerful oGCD substitutes to casted heals.

For a brief example, putting the differences in rDPS and utility aside, imagine how much friendlier WHM would feel to a DPSing healer if Tetragrammaton was given 3 charges with each charge having a 20-second CD. I'd hazard most would be fine with removing Cure II if that was what was required to keep the balance, even. Imagine if instead of lilies WHM had a passive aura that pulsed a 150-potency smart heal on the most injured ally within range every 3 seconds. Imagine if Cure III was now MP-free and oGCD but on a 60-second CD, etc. Even small changes for WHM like adjusting frickin' Aero II potency but making it a 30-second duration like every other healer DoT in the game would go a long way towards helping their overall fluidity (less time reapplying Aero = more Stone IV).

Alternately, if the game ever does a World of Warcraft-esque "stat squish" down the line, they could always use the opportunity to honest-to-goodness adjust healing modifiers and potencies relative to maximum health bars so that having a strong spammable toolkit of GCD-laden heals is actually a boon and not a bane, due to healthier healing requirements for content. *shrug* But if that's never going to happen, then the other healers really need to be made more "DPSing-while-healing friendly", IMO.

They did that with AST by changing Malefic to 1.5s. WHM is stuck with GCD-lock unless they use Aero II. What I'd like to see is WHM getting something that actually helps relieve some of its GCD Lock issues since the other two healers(AST especially) are much more free to handle their oGCDs and still keep the damage rolling since SCH has Ruin II to help itself to whenever it has to move on the fly. WHM can't keep moving and doing damage unless they Swiftcast a majority of the time, and this is just the GCD issues we have right now.

[HyperiusUltima]

I think the remedy for branching Arcanist is simply add a trait at 30 that simply forces SCH to have a MP-only ED. Though, then we’d have to think: how would SCH spend stacks during downtime? The biggest issue is if SCH dies, they are going to have hell since they lose all their stacks AND they have to re-summon the fairy for healing/eat the fairy for stacks if they need Aetherflow NOW.

So by making ED a % MP gain, that allows things to be more forgiving provided Aetherflow isn’t on CD. It’d even allow them to have a better MP economy and give the power of choice since SCH has to decide how it’s going to plan out their stack usage in a fight.

[Jinzhu]

I think the remedy for branching Arcanist is simply add a trait at 30 that simply forces SCH to have a MP-only ED. Though, then we’d have to think: how would SCH spend stacks during downtime? The biggest issue is if SCH dies, they are going to have hell since they lose all their stacks AND they have to re-summon the fairy for healing/eat the fairy for stacks if they need Aetherflow NOW.

So by making ED a % MP gain, that allows things to be more forgiving provided Aetherflow isn’t on CD. It’d even allow them to have a better MP economy and give the power of choice since SCH has to decide how it’s going to plan out their stack usage in a fight.

This is a very bad idea for a few reasons. 1. The amount of SCHs even utilizing their MP at a high level are very small when compared to the population which means Energy Drain would just be as useful as Fluid Aura in most situations. 2. In the raid scene SCHs will become more required than ever as now there is no risk reward value on their Aetherflow stacks and would be able to use all their resources on healing without a DPS loss (up until the point where you need the MP). To add a little on to this about half the Energy Drains you use do nothing for your MP maybe more than half in less healing intensive fights like O9 and O10. Most of the abilities you would use would just end up as fodder to push out your aetherflow uses and would feel terrible to use. 3. Energy Drain is one of the only complexities SCH has. Lining it up with burst or deciding if it's worth using that said Energy Drain on an Indom or Excog. Gutting it would make the job as boring as WHM.

[Erudito]

Personally, I think Scholar is fine. Their kit of moves has a lot of synergy and it’s all very effective when used properly.

No, I believe the other healers should be brought up to such effectiveness. Not buffs, but more of a lore/logic centered rework.

To me, that is what Scholar did right from the start. From the beginning they took into consideration the lore (healers and commanders of the Nymian Marines which were all mostly Marauders/Warriors), applies logic to it and went from there.

What worries me the most is how they are gonna top it for Shadowbringers.

[lulunami]

Energy Drain is used for raid burst windows, fairy Gauge, and low damage parts of encounters.

If the damage component of Energy Drain were to be reduced for SCH, you would really only see SCH use Energy Drain to balance out Succor MP usage. SCH would not really use Energy Drain anymore since you get a lot more equivalent MP value out of Indom, Excog, and Lustrate.

[KDSilver]

The debate is interesting and all, but the more I read, the more I feel like people want to completely break scholar based design.
...let's not ? Nerfing doesn't include a complete rework, especially when this one is really well made.

[Risvertasashi]

The debate is interesting and all, but the more I read, the more I feel like people want to completely break scholar based design.
...let's not ? Nerfing doesn't include a complete rework, especially when this one is really well made.

SCH does need to be toned down a bit, but, yeah. Unfortunately in this sort of situation, a lot of people will want to hate nerf a job into the ground.

Fortunately for SCHs and unfortunately for healer balance, SE is extremely shy about nerfing any job and it's not likely to happen, though. Or if it does, it'll be like 20 potency off some ability.