SCH needs some nerfs

[Metsonm]

Hey guys. I've been on a bit of a hiatus. Am I missing anything? Since the recent ast buff AST and SCH have been roughly neck to neck when it comes to rdps. And well, healing.... well not like the game requires much healing to start with so pretty irrelevant.

Why this nerf thread now? I would've been expecting a thread about how whm is broken instead.

There's a recent thread a bit down the page about how WHM is lacking a solid niche. It mostly evolved into discussing it in comparison to AST and how WHM feels like it's missing something.

This is just looking at the same issue from the other end, I guess.

[Neela]

First off they never said that so stop putting words in people's mouths, second of all leave that crap in that thread. Thanks. This isn't about MCH, there are enough threads going on about it.

oh he/she didn't? ^^



I wasn't the one who start the bite - but im also not the one who will take it without defending myself. And its not about Mch or Whm - its just about if someone said something so stupid about a Brd-skill-change - he/she doubtly understands other-skills adjustments as well. thats why I brought it over here.

^^

[MoroMurasaki]

oh he/she didn't? ^^



I wasn't the one who start the bite - but im also not the one who will take it without defending myself. And its not about Mch or Whm - its just about if someone said something so stupid about a Brd-skill-change - he/she doubtly understands other-skills adjustments as well. thats why I brought it over here.

^^

So.... comfirmed, you don't read?

They said a pDPS nerf to brd could make MCH competitive again. This is not saying it would make MCH equal to BRD in the same way that I'm not saying a pDPS nerf to SCH would not make WHM equal to SCH.

Some groups will value the rDPS from Chain over a bit more pDPS from WHM anyways just like some groups will prefer BRDs utility to MCH's.

These suggestions are band-aids to help mitigate the gigantic disparity in clear rates between classes like BRD and SCH and their competition for the months leading up to 5.0.

Hey guys. I've been on a bit of a hiatus. Am I missing anything? Since the recent ast buff AST and SCH have been roughly neck to neck when it comes to rdps. And well, healing.... well not like the game requires much healing to start with so pretty irrelevant.

Why this nerf thread now? I would've been expecting a thread about how whm is broken instead.

Welcome back!

There are a lot of threads (and have been a lot of threads, several by me) talking about how WHM needs help. I chose to make this one because I came to realize how well the current raid tier synergizes with SCH's kit and how the clear rates for this tier were so heavily skewed towards WHM/AST basically not being used as a comp.

WHM's (myself previously included) have been pointing our fingers at AST as the source of our woes because it's been seen as our direct competition as a regen healer for a long time but the truth is with the Balance nerf and the addition of Miasma II to SCH AST hasn't been the issue here for a while now, it's all SCH.

It's kind of like the MCH/Caster wars going on for a while now - instead of pointing fingers at each other they should be looking at BRD which is in an even better (worse?) place in terms of clears for Alphascape when you consider it's one out of nine DPS with one out of five clears.

WHM's complaining about their lack of rDPS and low pDPS are complaining about a perfectly valid issue but it doesn't seem to be doing anything, my hope is that if SCH was not seen as practically mandatory (or even in some situations disadvantaged) that you would see more WHM/AST pairs and better healer balance overall.

[Lastelli]

oh he/she didn't? ^^



I wasn't the one who start the bite - but im also not the one who will take it without defending myself. And its not about Mch or Whm - its just about if someone said something so stupid about a Brd-skill-change - he/she doubtly understands other-skills adjustments as well. thats why I brought it over here.

^^

You once again proved that you don't know what you're talking about. Why are you discussing about jobs balance when you lack the basic knowledge of how balance works in this game?

You still haven't written a meaningful post explaining why casual players should feel outraged by a pdps buff to whm or why a pdps nerf to brd wouldn't contribute to making mch more competitive, by the way.

[Ghishlain]

Hey guys. I've been on a bit of a hiatus. Am I missing anything? Since the recent ast buff AST and SCH have been roughly neck to neck when it comes to rdps. And well, healing.... well not like the game requires much healing to start with so pretty irrelevant.

Why this nerf thread now? I would've been expecting a thread about how whm is broken instead.

Welcome back/

I'd imagine this discussion was partially sparked by the fact that SCH has been a meta choice for raids for 5 out of the 6 raid tiers since AST's introduction and attempt to draw attention to just how powerful SCH has been. That's essentially 30 months of SCH "must picks" in the healer spectrum. In part though, this is because nothing can really challenge SCH on the "Mitigation healer" role without indirectly buffing Diurnal AST out the wazoo and shutting WHM out completely - hence the idea of nerfing SCH to compensate for the healer identity inadequacies that AST is currently showing.

If S-E is dead set in maintaining this "main healer" and "mitigation healer" dynamic, I am hoping the introduction of a 4th healer would mean we end up with two main healers and two mitigation healers and SCH ends up being challenge by the second mitigation healer. This way we don't really need to nerf SCH and (hopefully) make all four healers competitive in some fashion.

[EaMett]

Thanks everyone for clearing that up.

I'm a little confused though because the healing toolkit is pretty irrelevant in and of itself. There's barely any healing required and there are actually quite a few speed runners that run noct AST with SCH (AST does almost all the shielding). I believe there's even a post in this forum about such a comp on chaos.
Adding new classes won't change this much unless SE really bumps up healing requirements.

Of course healing toolkit has an impact on pDPS but more about that bellow.

When it comes to defining meta the only thing that counts is rDPS. And that's not even on a lower tier of skill, meta is defined by the higher tiers where class potential is properly expressed.
As it stands AST and SCH are pretty balanced and performing miles better than WHM (historically SCH has always been the rdps master up until very recently, hence it's presence). That's why WHM is left out. I'm not sure how nerfing SCH helps in all of this.

[MoroMurasaki]

Thanks everyone for clearing that up.

I'm a little confused though because the healing toolkit is pretty irrelevant in and of itself. There's barely any healing required and there are actually quite a few speed runners that run noct AST with SCH (AST does almost all the shielding). I believe there's even a post in this forum about such a comp on chaos.
Adding new classes won't change this much unless SE really bumps up healing requirements.

Of course healing toolkit has an impact on pDPS but more about that bellow.

When it comes to defining meta the only thing that counts is rDPS. And that's not even on a lower tier of skill, meta is defined by the higher tiers where class potential is properly expressed.
As it stands AST and SCH are pretty balanced and performing miles better than WHM (historically SCH has always been the rdps master up until very recently, hence it's presence). That's why WHM is left out. I'm not sure how nerfing SCH helps in all of this.

The simple answer is SCH has the strongest pDPS, most consistent rDPS and by leaps and bounds the easiest time healing without losing GCDs.

AST is more of a happy medium than a comparable class to SCH. Its definitely in a much better place than WHM and WHM would need a buff to catch up to it especially after the Malefic cast time reduction and CU becoming instant.

I think WHM and SCH should be brought in line with AST rather than AST and WHM being brought up to SCH if for the sake of retaining the difficulty of the current tier than anything else. This means SCH losing some damage and WHM gaining it.

[EaMett]

Well the "easiest time healing with oGCDs" is exactly why it can DPS like it does. You can't really isolate one from the other.

What's your take on the difficulty to play each class? WHM/AST/SCH. How do you think they scale with skill comparatively to each other?

[Eloah]

The simple answer is SCH has the strongest pDPS, most consistent rDPS and by leaps and bounds the easiest time healing without losing GCDs.

AST is more of a happy medium than a comparable class to SCH. Its definitely in a much better place than WHM and WHM would need a buff to catch up to it especially after the Malefic cast time reduction and CU becoming instant.

I think WHM and SCH should be brought in line with AST rather than AST and WHM being brought up to SCH if for the sake of retaining the difficulty of the current tier than anything else. This means SCH losing some damage and WHM gaining it.

Why are these things still being discussed? The parallels have been addressed and deciphered. Healer balance is good, it's damn near perfect compared to the other balances. Most of the issues any healer has, and they all have them, are within their personal kit.

And why is their DPS still a "factor", it's already been explained why their DPS is "high" during raids.

[Risvertasashi]

Healer balance is good, it's damn near perfect compared to the other balances.

It is not. healer balance is the worst it's been all expac.

Here's a nice starting point but you're right in that it's been discussed to death.