Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

[Vidu]

Just wondering, where are you getting this 80% number from? I don’t really do savage or ex fights but I normally clear everything I’ve run outside of some recent Burn runs where people are dying due to aoe damage, but normally things are fine and runs I get clear in pretty decent times, if 80% of players are bad shouldn’t I be clearing stuff more infrequently?

I suppose that number is just a "guess", but even if its correct: No, you shouldnt be clearing stuff more infrequently, because most content is so easy (basically everything outside of EX-primals and Savage - and maybe NM-raids within the first week) that you can carry ice-mages, no-dot-dps, healers that dont do anything but press one button (their basic heal - cure 1, physick), tanks that dont do anything but their aggro-combo...

You can get through the latest dungeons and NM-raids without knowing your job at all, because the other three/seven people can carry you (most of the time).
80% actually seems like quite a bit of a high number, but there are far, far to many people in current endgame-content without a clue that they're doing a lot of things pretty, pretty wrong - but because they get carried through, they believe, they're doing perfectly fine.
And we obviously dont need savage-difficulty in our daily expert-roulette, but... isnt it kinda sad that me and my boyfriend - paladin and BLM - often solo the last 15-20% of bosses? And isnt it also kinda sad that they're easy enough for us to do that? And isnt it even more sad that a lot of pld/blm-combos probably wouldnt be able to do that, because they dont use their full toolkits of clemency, intervention, debuffs on the boss, appropriate level 70 rotations?

Even if your party clears a dungeon/raid, that doesnt mean that everyone in that party did a good job - it might very well mean that 3 people did a damn good job, 2 did okay and the other 3 were deadweight, doing nothing but dying and eating up MP. Yet you still cleared.

[SerLuke]

I
You can get through the latest dungeons
And we obviously dont need savage-difficulty in our daily expert-roulette, but... isnt it kinda sad that me and my boyfriend - paladin and BLM - often solo the last 15-20% of bosses? And isnt it also kinda sad that they're easy enough for us to do that? And isnt it even more sad that a lot of pld/blm-combos probably wouldnt be able to do that, because they dont use their full toolkits of clemency, intervention, debuffs on the boss, appropriate level 70 rotations?

You have a point when you put it that way, I’ve even had to solo the last 50 % or so of bosses by being able to keep my self alive via clemency/MP restoration.

[MoroMurasaki]

Even if your party clears a dungeon/raid, that doesnt mean that everyone in that party did a good job - it might very well mean that 3 people did a damn good job, 2 did okay and the other 3 were deadweight, doing nothing but dying and eating up MP. Yet you still cleared.

This got me thinking about how these situations work.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn here but if I'm compared to the average player of this game I'm quite skilled. I also favor healing and RDM which means I've almost always got the ability to sustain myself, potentially save others and even bring some people back into the fight. This means that most of the parties I'm in have a competent player with some carrying ability in them (internet willing of course) but what about other groups?

Like imagine the worst tank, healer and dps that you've seen in o12n. Now make a party out of that caliber of player and drop them in the same fight. It would be an absolute train wreck.

People are so quick to defend these poor, disenfranchised casuals but has anyone given any thought to the actual consequences of their poor play? I'm not talking about costing me an extra 5 or 10 minutes in expert roulette, clearing things in a timely fashion obviously doesn't matter to some of you, but what about not clearing at all?

At the end of the day it's all a balancing act. A given piece of content requires a certain amount of skill from the party as a whole and specific contribution by specific roles in some cases. When you don't have that you don't clear.

I kind of want to test this out by playing a melee or something. No defensive utility to speak of, find some bad pugs and see where things take us. I bet it isn't pretty.

Complain all you want about raiders and people who actually care about performance but it's the people who care who carry these underperformers through all their content. If we didn't exist they would be back there at Shinryu wondering why this boss was immortal.

[Vidu]

This got me thinking about how these situations work.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn here but if I'm compared to the average player of this game I'm quite skilled. I also favor healing and RDM which means I've almost always got the ability to sustain myself, potentially save others and even bring some people back into the fight. This means that most of the parties I'm in have a competent player with some carrying ability in them (internet willing of course) but what about other groups?

Like imagine the worst tank, healer and dps that you've seen in o12n. Now make a party out of that caliber of player and drop them in the same fight. It would be an absolute train wreck.

People are so quick to defend these poor, disenfranchised casuals but has anyone given any thought to the actual consequences of their poor play? I'm not talking about costing me an extra 5 or 10 minutes in expert roulette, clearing things in a timely fashion obviously doesn't matter to some of you, but what about not clearing at all?

At the end of the day it's all a balancing act. A given piece of content requires a certain amount of skill from the party as a whole and specific contribution by specific roles in some cases. When you don't have that you don't clear.

I kind of want to test this out by playing a melee or something. No defensive utility to speak of, find some bad pugs and see where things take us. I bet it isn't pretty.

Complain all you want about raiders and people who actually care about performance but it's the people who care who carry these underperformers through all their content. If we didn't exist they would be back there at Shinryu wondering why this boss was immortal.

I'm often asking myself the question "If everyone played at the level of this person - would the dungeon be cleared (in time)?" or "If this was a solo-game - would that person beat this boss?" - and if the answer is "No", then I personally find that person and their performance unacceptable and will try to communicate/give advice first, but if that doesnt work, remove the person from the party. Because at that point it doesnt matter to me anymore that the two of us can dou the dungeon.

For me its not about those 5 or 10 minutes either, its about a certain amount of respect and courtesy for your fellow players - and thats whats bugging me the most about those "bad players", that they show a general lack of both self-awareness and respect for the other people in their party.

...I guess you're right with your last part though and I'm guilty of that myself. I cant count of the times I said "Half of those people didnt deserve this clear of A9NM..." - but I also have an intrest to get the stuff done myself, so I wont wipe the group everytime the bard isnt using songs or dots, just to get them out...
Not a fan of carrying people, but at a certain point, I just give up - just how I've almost given up with giving advice, because most of the time its met with such a bad attitude... (and even worse - we have people who are even defending that and are of the opinion that you shouldnt give polite and friendly advice until the person who desperatly needs it, begs you for it!)

So, somedays I might be building the brick wall those people are hitting by kicking them (not that I actually believe that they sit down and think "mmh, maybe I look into my job now after all..."), but somtimes I just cant be bothered and hope that someone else will do that - or that that bard wont bother to many people on their quest of being the worst WoL Eorzea has ever seen...

[Aomine1992]

1. Are they a new player?

2. Did they recently change their UI/Binds or both?

3. Are they having a bad day or are they feeling sick?

Could be any of these things or more preventing someone from performing well. and to be fair most of the time I find it is.

Correction

1. They are just really bad

2. They are bad but blame it on lag or hotbar issues.

3. They are still bad but also tired.

Performing well is a state of mind in my opinion, the thing preventing them from playing well is simply themselves.

[Gemina]

Sometimes you have to inform a player they're doing something wrong, otherwise they'll never know they're doing something wrong. About a week ago, I was in a Suzaku EX party with a SAM who wasn't doing their positionals. Someone advised they should try to do this since they would get more Kenki and the SAM went "oh I didn't know! Thank you!"

Actually, no you don't. There is nothing that obligates you to give tutelage to another player. That doesn't mean I don't see where you are coming from. If I see a WHM spamming medica, I am going to say something about it. But that isn't a "you really should be doing x, to achieve y", that is more along the lines of, "what you're doing is seriously effing schite up!" Even then, I don't HAVE to tell this person anything. If this was a member of my static taking on a role or job I am experienced in, I am more apt to give constructive criticism in this case. Some random in a PUG who I likely never see again? Nope. If wipes are happening, I'll stop the whole thing and address issues as a group instead of pointing out individual shortcomings.

Only time giving advice would ever slow a run down is if the bad player doesn't take it, since at that point you've wasted your own time (and others) talking to a brick wall. If a player does take advice, the run can potentially speed up and go smoothly. Toxic players, to me, are those who try to make a player feel like trash (not giving advice, or what they could do differently. Just telling them they're bad).

Exactly, which is most of the time. I'm not blind or deaf to the potential that accepted criticism can make a run go smoother. I've even been part of said runs. But I am not going to let the rare cases speak for the situation as a whole. Not even close. I don't carry that kind of optimism. There is a reason why the question is often asked, "why do players get so offended when I try to give them advice?"

[Gemina]

Again, a lot of people aren’t talking about content like dungeons. We’re talking about high-end content where knowing your rotation is absolutely necessary (and, honestly, people should know their rotations in dungeons as well).

Neither am I. When discussing matters such as this one, I factor in all content because I operate under the notion that everyone should bring their A game no matter the content. My expectations of our playerbase does not decrease with dungeons, nor does it increase with high-end content. If you are level 70, I expect you to know your job, period. If someone has to explain to you that you don't AoE on single target at level 70, you don't belong in anything other than solo content. I think we agree here.

It is far more toxic for a SAM to join in on an Extreme farm party and proceed to use their AOE combos or spam Enpi on a boss as opposed to single-target because “lol this is how I want to play these animations look cooler” compared to the person who would say “Hey, please use your single-target rotation on a boss because it’s more effective and deals more damage”.

But that's a clear case of trolling. Of course this is more toxic. That wasn't the example I provided though. What I spoke of is a player deliberately bringing a run down because a player is not performing according to their own expectations. Whether these expectations were set by the meta, personal fflogs, unrealistic, or even just the general playstyle of a certain job what's going on is the player feels like they are being attacked, and that is why they go on the defensive and lash out.

There seems to be fine lines we walk when it comes to this topic. I say this because, I am going to see that a player trying to help has good intentions, and I am also going to know when an underperforming player is still trying. I carry another expectation, and that is experienced players should be able to tell the difference between this and toxic players who do not deserve their help, and toxic players trying to cram playstyles down another person's throat. Neither are welcome in any of my parties.

I'll give some examples:

"Hey Gem... did you know if you open with DA+Dark Passenger, you don't really need to be in Grit? You have Blackest Knight now, you can toss the safety net."

"Hey DRK... WTF is up with you being in Grit full time? Any tank worth their salt knows you don't stay in tank stance."

While I am not saying that any of you in particular use the latter, I will say that the latter I usually this "constructive criticism" that I see being tossed around. If anyone wants to tell me to grow thicker skin, I will respond with my thin skin makes it easier for me to smell BS.

[SenorPatty]

Complain all you want about raiders and people who actually care about performance but it's the people who care who carry these underperformers through all their content. If we didn't exist they would be back there at Shinryu wondering why this boss was immortal.

I'm so glad I'm at home reading this cuz this made laugh so damn hard.

[Legion88]

Things to think about before you call someone "Bad"

Before coming to your points it is important to make sure we are talking about the same topic.

1.) I don't call someone "Bad", i don't get personal and damn the person.

2.) I call their playstyle "Bad" or harmful for the party or their understanding of job and content mechanics deficient or "Bad".

3.) I don't judge by high standards.
For content mechanics it should be basic to know that orange stuff is harmfull and should be avoided, also the stack marker (circle with arrows pointing inside) is a universal marker not changing in its effect and huge mob packs should be burned with AoE.
For job mechanics i don't need optimization, just the basic knowledge dependent on their level.
In general the upkeep of upkeep mechanics like Heavy Thrust or Straight Shot also for job specific basic mechanics like for BLM the circling of AF and UI, for higher levels the use of Enochian and enochian based skills, for BRD the use of it's DoTs and songs, for tanks to switch between tank and off stance reasonable, for healer to DPS in healing downtimes just as examples.

So now that we have a base to discuss i will work through your points:

1. Are they a new player?

This is irrelevant. You have the tools for easy learning and integrating of your skills while you level.
Sit down once in a while and read your tooltips and do some theory crafting yourself. If you can't figure out how some things work or should work, ask for help or read a guide.
Noone asks for perfection and optimization but for the basic knowledge of your job and how it works.
Especially jump potion users have to learn to play before entering their first duty hoping that all will end well.

2. Did they recently change their UI/Binds or both?

This is a case of personal responsibility and etiquette.
If you are not accustomed to your UI and especially keybinds to a degree that it impacts your performance so hard that you will get a hindrance to a clear or can't perform the basics you shouldn't do any party content.
Take your time to relearn your abilities or you just annoy or anger other players.

3. Are they having a bad day or are they feeling sick?

And another case of personal responsibility and etiquette.
If you're having a bad day take a step back and focus on yourself. Get comfortable with yourself, don't involve strangers.
Also if you are so sick that it impacts your performance to drop so hard that you will get a hindrance to a clear or can't perform the basics for that content you shouldn't do it. Get rest and cure yourself.

Could be any of these things or more preventing someone from performing well. and to be fair most of the time I find it is.

If you fall under your 3(4) points you shouldn't participate in any content that requires to perform "well" or at least "above average" or at the basic skill level of your job.
Your first point may be an excuse, but just maybe.
But all points are showing an absence of respect for your other party members and the content.

[RokkuEkkusu]

Let's not forget some players are so bad they're toxic, no matter how they manage to be so bad.

I'll agree with you if the "bad" part refers to a person's attitude that is more toxic than a Morbol's Bad Breath with all those debuff shenanigans.