Thank you for increased difficulty

[TaleraRistain]

If people can't play their chosen class at the necessary level to handle mist dragon this deep into 70, and they have no desire to improve, I want them to quit.

There, I said it.

Enjoy your dead game then. I like challenge, but I'm okay if one small part of the game is left easy to appeal to those who just enjoy story.

[van_arn]

Enjoy your dead game then. I like challenge, but I'm okay if one small part of the game is left easy to appeal to those who just enjoy story.

There's plenty of visual novels out there if no challenge is desired. And requiring a minimal degree of competence, which is all Mist requires, will not kill the game.

Nor has it in the past when even harder content was required, and was gradually reduced in power over time through gear progression/unsync.

If someone lacks the competence to clear mist dragon now, they can wait until 5.0 to get carried through unsynced. But they'd have to be spectacularly bad to require this.

So I'll say it again-- if they can't handle Mist now, and they don't want to wait OR to improve, then they SHOULD just give up. Let it go, because they'll be miserable here. Arguably by design.

Chin up, though! They can buy a level 70 skip potion off of the mog station so they can watch the cutscenes if they somehow haven't managed to figure out how to play the game before 5.0!

[Ramesses]

OK, we are talking about two different things now. Mechanically you may be correct, but only for one person. Its not about margin of error, its about lumping all the responsibility onto one healer. The best setup for accessible learning would be 5 man content (1 tank, 2 DPS, 2 heal). This would eliminate healer burden, and keep the social setting managable for learning.

I see what you mean about the 5-man party idea (which is essentially to ease the burden of the work on just one healer). However, this is one of the reasons why the early 4-man dungeons (Sastasha, Toto-Rak etc) are structured to provide a learning curve for roles. Even from the Alpha test, the Devs would turbo-level us from around level 12 to 20 just so that they could observe our ability to cope with those dungeons.

In 4-man parties, healers are one of the backbones of the party... which is why it is critical that the healer knows how to deliver. In fact, a good number of Duty Finder angry stories revolve around issues with a bad healer or tank. The core of the matter is that for many new players, in an effort to power through the early parts of the game and catch up, they play through these "learning" dungeons just once (usually during the storyline) and then head over to FATES and PotD / HoH to level up.

Therefore, some don't get that rigourous, skill-building, learning program and by the time they're into level 50 and 60, they are not able to be highly adept players.

And that right there is the key word... adept.

For many of us that started in 1.0 or 2.0 where there were no real swift methods of leveling (except chaining FATES in Bluefrog), we played through those learning dungeons over and over and over for loot and exp. We kept getting owned by ridiculous game mechanics like clamshells in Sastasha but we steadily learnt from it... and that's what makes players very adept.

[Jojoya]

If people can't play their chosen class at the necessary level to handle mist dragon this deep into 70, and they have no desire to improve, I want them to quit.

There, I said it.

MMORPGs that have gone "git gud or quit" for their end game content have died. Wildstar died because of it. WoW nearly did back in Cataclysm before Blizzard panic nerfed Heroic dungeons then later nerfed normal T11 and redesigned their plan for the remainder of the expansion.

Imagine how fast games would die if they had extended "git gud or die" to the basic leveling experience as well, which is what the MSQ is. It's the common thread that gates access to all other content in some way (even if it's simply unlocking access to the zone where the content is located). The millions of concurrent subscribers WoW has had over the years was largely due to the majority of the game being accessible to players of all skill levels, not just players wanting difficult content.

MMORPGs are an expensive genre to produce. Game companies need to make the common leveling content accessible to a reasonably large number of players for the game to remain financially viable.

SE has had 70 levels to gradually turn up the dial on difficult. At first they were losing trickles of players who found the increasing difficulty a turn off but as the increase continues the trickle is growing into streams. Continue to increase it more and the streams are likely to turn into floods.

It is just a game in the long run. People want to relax and have a good time. Most don't find pushing their limits too hard fun or relaxing, they find it stressful instead. It's effort they'd rather save for real life, where it actually matters.

Once they hit their personal wall, whether from ability or desire, they lose interest and quit. That's not good for the financial health of the game. The less money it makes, the less optional content like true hard modes a company can afford to create.

Do you really want additional content lost for the sake of pushing a more difficult MSQ? Do you really want it ending up like Wildstar?

I see what you mean about the 5-man party idea (which is essentially to ease the burden of the work on just one healer).

Creating 5man groups with 2 healers wouldn't solve anything. They'd have to retune dungeons to justify 2 healers beyond just the ability of one healer to raise another. There would also be a significant increase in queue times. Creating a greater demand for healers doesn't create more players willing to heal.

What the game needs to do is give groups the ability to Raise a healer. Make it a special LB or redesign the current LB so the user either casts a Raise if they have a dead party member targeted or performs the normal LB function if they don't (assuming they have a valid target when one is needed). Or give every job a special combat Raise on a long CD. Giving it to Red Mage was a start but it only helps if the group has a Red Mage.

[RiyahArp]

Let's examine why it was unexpected?

Because mobs that use high-damage dots and are aggroless is not something we see on trash a lot, mostly. The final long pull was just as many mobs, but wasn't an issue since no archers.

Why can't you "blame the bads"? You have no business joining an EX party if you cannot perform a basic opener.

I think people forget what a "basic opener" was in HW. More to the point, the issue is that people always define anything as basic, and the "blame the bads" was more that no matter what seems to happen, forum culture assumes its faceroll. The only way it will ever not is if it escalates to a point where it simply can't be done.

This is a defeatist attitude. Are some people better than others? Absolutely. That doesn't mean they are incapable of improving, especially when the demand isn't significant. We aren't talking about going into Ultimate, but being able to handle simple mechanics while maintaining respectable DPS.

You and dual gave personal examples. Here's the thing, you weren't ever forced to do it, nor was it someone else's definition of how you should play foisted on you. You chose to improve. But when people talk about this, they are talking about wanting content to force people to get good, not so much optional. And when you combine this with them definining a lot of things as simple or easy, it can backfire.

Also, yeah, i do believe in limits. People can't improve indefinitely, we all have different skills at games. If you step into a competitive game you can get reminded of that real quick. I don't mean everyone is helpless, but you can't ignore it.

I even think sometimes trying to lift people up can be worse. Like the harder content now seems to be making me worse as a healer, not better; i overheal too much, i can't dps as much, burn through mp faster, etc. The way they set up the encounters kind of makes it much harder to do the healer meta we are used to (dps as much as possible, heal as little, rely more on dots/don't keep them topped off always.) If you make it harder, it might paradoxically make people seem worse, because they content is harder and they don't always rise to meet it. I mean, if you do poor dps on these easy dungeons, what happens if you now have to do a hard one?

IDK...i'm not arguing for any nerfs, although i am worried if they boosted the 24 man thats coming too. Just at this point i pretty much expect they'll start making it harder till it hits a point where they will need to course correct again.

[Xiomara]

I am amazed people found the Mist Dragon to be hard. I'm not a savage level raider and I cleared the dungeon blind. Just stick to the sides, and run around the sides until either you or another player reveals where the dragon is you'll see the marker and be able to avoid it. I'd be ok if they added an extra second or two to the mechanic to account for lag, but otherwise no changes.

Unfortunately it's a nice difficulty now, but as get i390/400 gear then it'll go back to being easy.

[Ameela]

snip

And sending people unprepared into other content where they'll hold back 3-7 other players is somehow better?
The MSQ being accessible is the reason why now when you load into O12 you'll have people who don't know how proximity markers work, people who don't know what their kits do, people who can't handle more than one mechanic at a time...
I had a DRK in O2 the other day who used GCDs so infrequently that you could actually see him auto attack 2 or 3 times in-between each one, and my only thoughts were "how the hell did he manage to get this far" and "him and his party are not going to have a good time by the time he reaches the higher Omega floors"

This is, first and foremost, a group game and if your performance isn't good enough to get through what the MSQ throws at you then you're most likely holding back anyone that plays with you, directly making the game more frustrating for them.

[RuleofThree]

Eh, While more teeth is great, I wonder if it's more teeth or just gear checks. I don't wanna be that guy but I think we should wait and get gear before we toss our hats off to SE. If I remember correctly BW had teeth on first release too but that ended as soon as peopel got gear. D: I will say tho the last fight in omega feels like it def has teeth. THo I wonder if it's too late for it cause all I'm seeing is disbands :c

This. None of this is 'hard content.' It was difficult when I didn't have i255 gear. Now that I a mix of i260 and i290, it's nothing. Mist dragon is hard because other people that don't have i260 gear make a mistake, and it costs you. I make a mistake (and I do), and it's hardly the end. Get the gear, and this will be the same brain-dead content you have to force down your throat until the next patch comes.

We need more stuff like the mist dragon. If people can't handle these mechanics by this point of the msq and are still expecting carries, then kick them so they're stuck in an endless loop or learn.

I have zero sympathy if people can't handle themselves by this point.

I feel like you are the type that has a girlfriend/wife that plays FFXIV and is just as arrogant you, or you are the type that would look at your girlfriend/wife trying to play FFXIV with you, and when she doesn't cut it, you break up/ask for a divorce. Reminds me of the League of Legends mentality, and how it ruins friendships cause your friend - who lives off the game - is diamond, and you are gold.

Gold 3 Friend: "Hey, wanna play LoL? I'll support."
Diamond 2 Friend: *briefly has visions of his rank dropping from Diamond 2 to Gold 3. Makes decision.* Man, you know I like you and all, but I like my rank more. Git gud, then we can be friends again.

[MoroMurasaki]

You and dual gave personal examples. Here's the thing, you weren't ever forced to do it, nor was it someone else's definition of how you should play foisted on you. You chose to improve. But when people talk about this, they are talking about wanting content to force people to get good, not so much optional. And when you combine this with them definining a lot of things as simple or easy, it can backfire.

I think it's less about content that forces people to get good and more about content that forces people to get literally at all competent at the game.

If there was a fight in the msq that actually required an optimal rotation to beat it I would be alongside what I imagine are the vast majority of players asking for nerfs. Perfection is not something that happens over night and I agree that some people are just plain not as naturally talented at certain aspects of the game. I consider myself one of them.

The issue right now is that no one seems to be able to agree where this line actually exists. To me I think expecting people to dodge repeated AoE while still putting out some damage is fine. Tanks and healers have beaten the Will of the Moon battle that people are complaining about, if a dps can't put out enough damage to do the same thing I think it's reasonable to wipe them until they learn that they need to do some more damage.

I'm not talking about a lot of damage, I'm talking about more than a healer. If a dps can't do that then I think they should have a roadblock to conquer before progressing their msq. If that's evil or toxic or whatever so be it.

This is a game where we have to play together to progress. If someone is going to get into Tsukuyomi story mode doing sub2k as a RDM (which I have seen more times than I care to count) then the game has utterly failed them and left them to exist as a burden on other players. That is not okay.

I'm no one's mom, it is not my job to carry pugs through every bit of content that they do because they can't be bothered to Google a rotation or even read their tooltips much less dodge the orange circles on the ground.

People need to think about the impact they are having on their parties. If you can't be confident that you are a net positive to the majority of groups you find yourself in then perhaps you need to do something about that to change it for the better. Having a gradual upswing in the difficulty of the msq seems like the only way SE has seen to make people evaluate that.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Because mobs that use high-damage dots and are aggroless is not something we see on trash a lot, mostly. The final long pull was just as many mobs, but wasn't an issue since no archers.

Which promotes an actual change in tactics over the standard "pull entire room and spam your aoes." Granted, getting DPS players to even do that can be asking too much lately...

Wouldn't it be nice if Leg Sweep actual had a use? Or DPS were meant to take down this priority mobs so they don't overwhelm the healer? And wouldn't this diversifying gameplay necessitate more healing, thus giving healers more to do that isn't damage. Furthermore, contrary to your bias persistence the only way content can ever be harder is through OHKO attacks. Here we have an example—one you provided—which doesn't do that.

I think people forget what a "basic opener" was in HW. More to the point, the issue is that people always define anything as basic, and the "blame the bads" was more that no matter what seems to happen, forum culture assumes its faceroll. The only way it will ever not is if it escalates to a point where it simply can't be done.

And you seem to forget Zurvan Extreme is midcore content, i.e, endgame. I reiterate, you have no business joining an EX party if you cannot perform a "basic opener." That is literally asking the bear minimum for harder content. An equivalent would be taking an advance computer programming course despite having no idea how C++ or SQL work then complaining it's too difficult. Should we dumb everything down because you took it upon yourself to skip ahead? If you can't perform an opener, why are you joining a Zurvan farm party?
Because you (generalization) were lazy.

As for the forums claiming everything is easy. You're inferring nonsense. Thordan, Sephirot and Nidhogg are all talked about as fairly challenging EX Primals; the former two being highly praised. Even Sophia, generally considered one of the easiest HW Extremes still garners praise for her mechanics. Despite being the easiest tier in HW, Creator is widely considered good; with Cruise Chase and Alexander Prime both being highlights. Even Halicarnassus, Ex Death and Kefka are well liked.

None of these fights are considered faceroll, Sophia notwithstanding. You're simply blinded by your own bias.

I even think sometimes trying to lift people up can be worse. Like the harder content now seems to be making me worse as a healer, not better; i overheal too much, i can't dps as much, burn through mp faster, etc. The way they set up the encounters kind of makes it much harder to do the healer meta we are used to (dps as much as possible, heal as little, rely more on dots/don't keep them topped off always.) If you make it harder, it might paradoxically make people seem worse, because they content is harder and they don't always rise to meet it. I mean, if you do poor dps on these easy dungeons, what happens if you now have to do a hard one?

IDK...i'm not arguing for any nerfs, although i am worried if they boosted the 24 man thats coming too. Just at this point i pretty much expect they'll start making it harder till it hits a point where they will need to course correct again.

Have you considered, you know, not doing that? Everything you described is easily remedied by adapting to the situation and learning. Experiment with what you can get away with. Did the party actually need that extra Medica when the aoe damage barely did 40%? No, Medica II will tick them up just fine. You're only a worse healer if you stubbornly stick to a preferred method even if its proving less efficient. Overhealing and dealing less DPS tends to happen when you don't yet know a fight. I overheal plenty because I haven't figured out all the timings. Not to mention, I have to adapt to players who are equally unprepared or new. With practice and repetition, this becomes easier. Regardless, you're forgetting these players already experience what you described except instead of a progressive difficulty curve to better ease them into EX and Savage. They see a sudden spike because FFXIV typically does a horrible job pacing.

If everything stays easy, people become complacent, which is what results in the sudden shock when you try moving up a tier and nothing you've done works. This is why we see people whine about Shinryu normal. The game conditioned them to expect a casual stroll, then ramped up the challenge seemingly from nowhere.

Nonetheless, you are correct some people won't rise to the occasion. Better they quit at Alphascape than breeze through an easy alternative only to get blasted by frustrated people in Sazaku EX because she's a sudden jump.