Thank you for increased difficulty

[TaleraRistain]

I think the problem with the argument about MSQ difficulty is the belief held by some that it's preparing everyone for the optional content. It's not. It's preparing everyone for the next leg of the MSQ. It's the one part of the game that everyone is required to do. And if it's made too difficult, then people aren't going to "git gud". They'll just quit. This isn't 1999 with EQ where it was nearly the only dog on the block. There are a myriad number of games out there for people to choose from that are accessible to all play styles. If XIV wants to remain competitive, they need to keep their content accessible.

While *I* enjoyed the Mist Dragon because bosses with patterns bore me to death so a little randomization I find fun, I can see where that doesn't suit everyone. I staunchly support that sort of challenge in EX trials, in both normal mode and Savage raids, and the 24 man raids. But MSQ does have a requirement for a challenge limit, so it can maintain an adequate accessibility level to keep the game competitive.

[van_arn]

I think the problem with the argument about MSQ difficulty is the belief held by some that it's preparing everyone for the optional content. It's not. It's preparing everyone for the next leg of the MSQ. It's the one part of the game that everyone is required to do. And if it's made too difficult, then people aren't going to "git gud". They'll just quit. This isn't 1999 with EQ where it was nearly the only dog on the block. There are a myriad number of games out there for people to choose from that are accessible to all play styles. If XIV wants to remain competitive, they need to keep their content accessible.

While *I* enjoyed the Mist Dragon because bosses with patterns bore me to death so a little randomization I find fun, I can see where that doesn't suit everyone. I staunchly support that sort of challenge in EX trials, in both normal model and Savage raids, and the 24 man raids. But MSQ does have a challenge limit, so it can maintain an adequate accessibility level to keep the game competitive.

If people can't play their chosen class at the necessary level to handle mist dragon this deep into 70, and they have no desire to improve, I want them to quit.

There, I said it.

[TaleraRistain]

If people can't play their chosen class at the necessary level to handle mist dragon this deep into 70, and they have no desire to improve, I want them to quit.

There, I said it.

Enjoy your dead game then. I like challenge, but I'm okay if one small part of the game is left easy to appeal to those who just enjoy story.

[van_arn]

Enjoy your dead game then. I like challenge, but I'm okay if one small part of the game is left easy to appeal to those who just enjoy story.

There's plenty of visual novels out there if no challenge is desired. And requiring a minimal degree of competence, which is all Mist requires, will not kill the game.

Nor has it in the past when even harder content was required, and was gradually reduced in power over time through gear progression/unsync.

If someone lacks the competence to clear mist dragon now, they can wait until 5.0 to get carried through unsynced. But they'd have to be spectacularly bad to require this.

So I'll say it again-- if they can't handle Mist now, and they don't want to wait OR to improve, then they SHOULD just give up. Let it go, because they'll be miserable here. Arguably by design.

Chin up, though! They can buy a level 70 skip potion off of the mog station so they can watch the cutscenes if they somehow haven't managed to figure out how to play the game before 5.0!

[Jojoya]

If people can't play their chosen class at the necessary level to handle mist dragon this deep into 70, and they have no desire to improve, I want them to quit.

There, I said it.

MMORPGs that have gone "git gud or quit" for their end game content have died. Wildstar died because of it. WoW nearly did back in Cataclysm before Blizzard panic nerfed Heroic dungeons then later nerfed normal T11 and redesigned their plan for the remainder of the expansion.

Imagine how fast games would die if they had extended "git gud or die" to the basic leveling experience as well, which is what the MSQ is. It's the common thread that gates access to all other content in some way (even if it's simply unlocking access to the zone where the content is located). The millions of concurrent subscribers WoW has had over the years was largely due to the majority of the game being accessible to players of all skill levels, not just players wanting difficult content.

MMORPGs are an expensive genre to produce. Game companies need to make the common leveling content accessible to a reasonably large number of players for the game to remain financially viable.

SE has had 70 levels to gradually turn up the dial on difficult. At first they were losing trickles of players who found the increasing difficulty a turn off but as the increase continues the trickle is growing into streams. Continue to increase it more and the streams are likely to turn into floods.

It is just a game in the long run. People want to relax and have a good time. Most don't find pushing their limits too hard fun or relaxing, they find it stressful instead. It's effort they'd rather save for real life, where it actually matters.

Once they hit their personal wall, whether from ability or desire, they lose interest and quit. That's not good for the financial health of the game. The less money it makes, the less optional content like true hard modes a company can afford to create.

Do you really want additional content lost for the sake of pushing a more difficult MSQ? Do you really want it ending up like Wildstar?

I see what you mean about the 5-man party idea (which is essentially to ease the burden of the work on just one healer).

Creating 5man groups with 2 healers wouldn't solve anything. They'd have to retune dungeons to justify 2 healers beyond just the ability of one healer to raise another. There would also be a significant increase in queue times. Creating a greater demand for healers doesn't create more players willing to heal.

What the game needs to do is give groups the ability to Raise a healer. Make it a special LB or redesign the current LB so the user either casts a Raise if they have a dead party member targeted or performs the normal LB function if they don't (assuming they have a valid target when one is needed). Or give every job a special combat Raise on a long CD. Giving it to Red Mage was a start but it only helps if the group has a Red Mage.

[Sigma-Astra]

It is just a game in the long run. People want to relax and have a good time. Most don't find pushing their limits too hard fun or relaxing, they find it stressful instead. It's effort they'd rather save for real life, where it actually matters.

Which I can agree and understand with towards some degree, but what do you do when you've had to explain to the same person five times in a row not to stand somewhere....and they end up standing there every time. At some point, something has to give because no one is having fun when the same person or more is being detrimental towards the rest of the players because of the gap in skill levels.

I can't tell you how many Tsukuyomi EX runs I've been in that we're to start off as fun for me and everyone, but ended up painful because people who claimed to be good couldn't even do basic things.

I want to relax and have fun too and not have my effort go to waste either, :<

[TwistedTea]

Which I can agree and understand with towards some degree, but what do you do when you've had to explain to the same person five times in a row not to stand somewhere....and they end up standing there every time. At some point, something has to give because no one is having fun when the same person or more is being detrimental towards the rest of the players because of the gap in skill levels.

If you end up with someone in the group that can't handle things, then remove them from the group. Be polite about instead of being a jerk but remove them.

I can't tell you how many Tsukuyomi EX runs I've been in that we're to start off as fun for me and everyone, but ended up painful because people who claimed to be good couldn't even do basic things.

I want to relax and have fun too and not have my effort go to waste either, :<

Tsukuyomi Ex is optional content and players should already be aware that expectations are higher in stuff like Extreme Primals. So kicks for non-performance should also be the norm/expected/more frequent.

OP is talking about basic dungeons and some of us are talking about MSQ content. MSQ is not content that's meant to be repeated for those who just want to access the latest non-Expert/non-Extreme/non-Savage content/non-combat content.

MSQ does not prepare people for harder content.

Have advanced versions of the Hall of the Novice:

1. Hall for Extreme Primals
2. Hall of the Raider

And make these difficult enough so that if you can't clear them solo,you don't have access to Extreme Primals, Savage content.

[Sigma-Astra]

Tsukuyomi Ex is optional content and players should already be aware that expectations are higher in stuff like Extreme Primals. So kicks for non-performance should also be the norm/expected/more frequent.

OP is talking about basic dungeons and some of us are talking about MSQ content. MSQ is not content that's meant to be repeated for those who just want to access the latest non-Expert/non-Extreme/non-Savage content/non-combat content.

MSQ does not prepare people for harder content.

Have advanced versions of the Hall of the Novice:

1. Hall for Extreme Primals
2. Hall of the Raider

And make these difficult enough so that if you can't clear them solo,you don't have access to Extreme Primals, Savage content.

Well, the same can be said for basic dungeons as well. If I'm spending my own [X] amount of time inside said dungeon to relax and have fun, then I shouldn't have to deal with a tank/healer/or DPS who wants to watch Netflix instead. I expect anyone walking into Expert roulette to have A) the time to do it B) the patience to do it without multi-tasking and C) knowledge of your job at level 70 with the appropriate gear.

I'm not asking for them to jump through hoops of fire with this. Expert dungeons lose their fun factor when you have less skilled players not taking it or their jobs seriously like the rest of the party might be, and then proceed to waste your time so long as they get to have fun their way.

It's a two-way street, the entire party dictates how the time is spent, not just one person. If the person doesn't want to be judged for their own personal skills, I'd say run with FC members or friends who also agree with that sort of setting and overall mindset.

But, when I queue I expect a basic level of competency in order to have fun, not a "let's just chill and wipe three times because it's just a video game, man".

[TwistedTea]

Well, the same can be said for basic dungeons as well. If I'm spending my own [X] amount of time inside said dungeon to relax and have fun, then I shouldn't have to deal with a tank/healer/or DPS who wants to watch Netflix instead...

...But, when I queue I expect a basic level of competency in order to have fun, not a "let's just chill and wipe three times because it's just a video game, man".

I consider Expert, optional content, as I've previously stated. I think 'Expert' should actually be "Expert" in terms of difficulty; not basic dungeon with higher iLvl requirements.

And just as with the proposed advanced Hall of Extreme Primal/Hall of the Raider, there should be some kind of similar gate before people are permitted to enter Expert content.

Lastly, as I quoted previously, this applies to basic/MSQ dungeons:

If you end up with someone in the group that can't handle things, then remove them from the group. Be polite about instead of being a jerk but remove them.

There's is a system in place to deal with non-performers.

Is it perfect?

No.

But I don't see people using it often enough.

[Jojoya]

Which I can agree and understand with towards some degree, but what do you do when you've had to explain to the same person five times in a row not to stand somewhere....and they end up standing there every time. At some point, something has to give because no one is having fun when the same person or more is being detrimental towards the rest of the players because of the gap in skill levels.

I can't tell you how many Tsukuyomi EX runs I've been in that we're to start off as fun for me and everyone, but ended up painful because people who claimed to be good couldn't even do basic things.

I want to relax and have fun too and not have my effort go to waste either, :<

I'm not talking about EX since EX isn't part of the MSQ. They can make EX and Savage as difficult as they want to satisfy the players who want that challenge, and I encourage them to keep doing it. There needs to be something that encourages the players who like to push their limits to keep doing so.

I'm talking about the content that's part of the MSQ. The MSQ gates all new content to the game if only by not allowing you access to the new zones where the new content is located without advancing far enough in the MSQ. You can't cut off a significant portion of the player base by creating mandatory content outside of the difficulty they can handle and retain their interest in the game.

WoW learned that in Cataclysm when the player base hit level cap at the start of the expansion then there was nothing for the average player to do because outside of a handful of dailies, they had turned up the difficulty dial on end game content from 5 to 10 and the majority of their player base had no interest in it. Within a few weeks of launch, they scrambled to seriously nerf Heroic dungeons and a few months later followed suit with Normal T11 raids (I think they had also made some adjustments to Heroic T11 at the same time though not nearly as drastic).

Wildstar learned that by also restricting end game content to hardcore players who wanted extreme difficulty from the start. If they thought their player base would rise to the challenge and learn to get better, they were sadly mistaken. People just quit and never looked back.

I don't want to see that happen to FFXIV. They either need to stop gating access to new zones and the more casual content located there via the MSQ or they need to reconsider how difficult they make the MSQ content. Leave the difficult content outside of the MSQ. A lot of players simply want the chance to experience the story and they'll continue to pay to support the game given that opportunity at level reasonable to the difficulty they can/are wiling to handle. Those players then end up funding the more difficult content that you find relaxing even if they aren't doing it themselves because at least they're getting access to other new content that does appeal to them.