Thank you for increased difficulty

[RiyahArp]

Having done both from a tank and healer perspective, I disagree. The super pull is Baeslar's is much worse in terms of raw damage. Not to mention, the archer dots can be brutal.

Eh, the issue was it was unexpected at that time, because few fights broke the aggro table with mobs and it wound up being a psuedo dps check since healers couldn't keep the tank up indefinitely. DPS actually could focus the archers to make it easier, which wasn't really that common. They also never really used caster or bard lb on trash then. Worse came to worse, it was purely optional difficulty, and you never vote abandoned it because of that one stretch.

But i still think if we were all here and it was new, we'd have the same issue of it being considered faceroll. Tsuku hard is, and that one all it takes is one healer screwing up on ahk morn to cause a wipe. Zurvan ex, the common meme was all you needed to do was do a decent opener to skip soar. The only way it will not be is if people start wiping and getting vote abandons on a large scale, to a point where you no longer can just blame the bads.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Eh, the issue was it was unexpected at that time, because few fights broke the aggro table with mobs and it wound up being a psuedo dps check since healers couldn't keep the tank up indefinitely. DPS actually could focus the archers to make it easier, which wasn't really that common. They also never really used caster or bard lb on trash then. Worse came to worse, it was purely optional difficulty, and you never vote abandoned it because of that one stretch.

But i still think if we were all here and it was new, we'd have the same issue of it being considered faceroll. Tsuku hard is, and that one all it takes is one healer screwing up on ahk morn to cause a wipe. Zurvan ex, the common meme was all you needed to do was do a decent opener to skip soar. The only way it will not be is if people start wiping and getting vote abandons on a large scale, to a point where you no longer can just blame the bads.

Let's examine why it was unexpected? Could it be crowd control and priority mobs are so infrequent, people have little experience with it? That pull actually asked for some skill, which can be a shock when everything else is piss easy. Granted, it isn't necessary a good example given you're still having to pull fifteen things to actually take a ton of damage and not have the WHM spamming Holy more than any healing ability.

Why can't you "blame the bads"? You have no business joining an EX party if you cannot perform a basic opener. Frankly, I find it highly disrespectful since you're coming into harder content woefully unprepared and essentially telling me "deal with it and carry me!" The meme arose because Zurvan EX asked very little from you and yet people couldn't do even that. Admittedly, I think Zurvan is a horribly designed fight. Soar shouldn't be skippable, period. At least not the first one. If you do skip, he literally does nothing for half his HP. Zurvan's a meme for a lot of reasons, Soar is only one of them.

Regardless, Zurvan was faceroll. Switching him and Byakko EX around doesn't change the fact both are easy if you pay attention and communicate a little.

As for Tsukiyomi. I've almost solo healed the final phase. Mostly sheer dumb luck, but it's entirely do-able. So no, one healing making a mistake doesn't necessarily cause a wipe. And even if people die, she has a near thirteen minute enrage. You have more than enough time to pick people up.

People can improve to a point, then it gets incredibly hard to go further. And the threshold varies from person to person. At some point you just hit your wall, and its up to you if you want to invest so much in climbing it. And then there comes the cliff, where no effort will ever help. I don't think people here have discussed what they think everyone playing the game can reach, or how realistic is its. I mean, there's never going to be a time in this game where 50% of players complete ex trials when relevant, short of the game shrinking to the hardcore players.

This is a defeatist attitude. Are some people better than others? Absolutely. That doesn't mean they are incapable of improving, especially when the demand isn't significant. We aren't talking about going into Ultimate, but being able to handle simple mechanics while maintaining respectable DPS. Unfortunately, far too many people either give up too easily or echo a similar sentiment you do; that they physically can't improve. Why? Because it's far easier to shift blame to some nebulous belief than actually admit the fault may simply lie with you. Like Dualgunner, I once saw Sophia as fairly hard due to my inexperience. Some two years later and I've progged half way through UcoB and just about done UwU. I've even tanked the former despite having only played melee DPS until late last year. At least in harder content. If I held the belief you seem to, I'd never come this far.

Do I expect everyone to have that same drive I do? No. But I'm not demanding Ultimate skill levels for dungeons. I'm wanting content where I don't spend 99% of my time DPSing on White Mage because I could literally AFKing otherwise, the healing requirements are that low.

[RiyahArp]

Let's examine why it was unexpected?

Because mobs that use high-damage dots and are aggroless is not something we see on trash a lot, mostly. The final long pull was just as many mobs, but wasn't an issue since no archers.

Why can't you "blame the bads"? You have no business joining an EX party if you cannot perform a basic opener.

I think people forget what a "basic opener" was in HW. More to the point, the issue is that people always define anything as basic, and the "blame the bads" was more that no matter what seems to happen, forum culture assumes its faceroll. The only way it will ever not is if it escalates to a point where it simply can't be done.

This is a defeatist attitude. Are some people better than others? Absolutely. That doesn't mean they are incapable of improving, especially when the demand isn't significant. We aren't talking about going into Ultimate, but being able to handle simple mechanics while maintaining respectable DPS.

You and dual gave personal examples. Here's the thing, you weren't ever forced to do it, nor was it someone else's definition of how you should play foisted on you. You chose to improve. But when people talk about this, they are talking about wanting content to force people to get good, not so much optional. And when you combine this with them definining a lot of things as simple or easy, it can backfire.

Also, yeah, i do believe in limits. People can't improve indefinitely, we all have different skills at games. If you step into a competitive game you can get reminded of that real quick. I don't mean everyone is helpless, but you can't ignore it.

I even think sometimes trying to lift people up can be worse. Like the harder content now seems to be making me worse as a healer, not better; i overheal too much, i can't dps as much, burn through mp faster, etc. The way they set up the encounters kind of makes it much harder to do the healer meta we are used to (dps as much as possible, heal as little, rely more on dots/don't keep them topped off always.) If you make it harder, it might paradoxically make people seem worse, because they content is harder and they don't always rise to meet it. I mean, if you do poor dps on these easy dungeons, what happens if you now have to do a hard one?

IDK...i'm not arguing for any nerfs, although i am worried if they boosted the 24 man thats coming too. Just at this point i pretty much expect they'll start making it harder till it hits a point where they will need to course correct again.

[MoroMurasaki]

You and dual gave personal examples. Here's the thing, you weren't ever forced to do it, nor was it someone else's definition of how you should play foisted on you. You chose to improve. But when people talk about this, they are talking about wanting content to force people to get good, not so much optional. And when you combine this with them definining a lot of things as simple or easy, it can backfire.

I think it's less about content that forces people to get good and more about content that forces people to get literally at all competent at the game.

If there was a fight in the msq that actually required an optimal rotation to beat it I would be alongside what I imagine are the vast majority of players asking for nerfs. Perfection is not something that happens over night and I agree that some people are just plain not as naturally talented at certain aspects of the game. I consider myself one of them.

The issue right now is that no one seems to be able to agree where this line actually exists. To me I think expecting people to dodge repeated AoE while still putting out some damage is fine. Tanks and healers have beaten the Will of the Moon battle that people are complaining about, if a dps can't put out enough damage to do the same thing I think it's reasonable to wipe them until they learn that they need to do some more damage.

I'm not talking about a lot of damage, I'm talking about more than a healer. If a dps can't do that then I think they should have a roadblock to conquer before progressing their msq. If that's evil or toxic or whatever so be it.

This is a game where we have to play together to progress. If someone is going to get into Tsukuyomi story mode doing sub2k as a RDM (which I have seen more times than I care to count) then the game has utterly failed them and left them to exist as a burden on other players. That is not okay.

I'm no one's mom, it is not my job to carry pugs through every bit of content that they do because they can't be bothered to Google a rotation or even read their tooltips much less dodge the orange circles on the ground.

People need to think about the impact they are having on their parties. If you can't be confident that you are a net positive to the majority of groups you find yourself in then perhaps you need to do something about that to change it for the better. Having a gradual upswing in the difficulty of the msq seems like the only way SE has seen to make people evaluate that.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

I think it's less about content that forces people to get good and more about content that forces people to get literally at all competent at the game.

If there was a fight in the msq that actually required an optimal rotation to beat it I would be alongside what I imagine are the vast majority of players asking for nerfs. Perfection is not something that happens over night and I agree that some people are just plain not as naturally talented at certain aspects of the game. I consider myself one of them.

The issue right now is that no one seems to be able to agree where this line actually exists. To me I think expecting people to dodge repeated AoE while still putting out some damage is fine. Tanks and healers have beaten the Will of the Moon battle that people are complaining about, if a dps can't put out enough damage to do the same thing I think it's reasonable to wipe them until they learn that they need to do some more damage.

I'm not talking about a lot of damage, I'm talking about more than a healer. If a dps can't do that then I think they should have a roadblock to conquer before progressing their msq. If that's evil or toxic or whatever so be it.

This is a game where we have to play together to progress. If someone is going to get into Tsukuyomi story mode doing sub2k as a RDM (which I have seen more times than I care to count) then the game has utterly failed them and left them to exist as a burden on other players. That is not okay.

I'm no one's mom, it is not my job to carry pugs through every bit of content that they do because they can't be bothered to Google a rotation or even read their tooltips much less dodge the orange circles on the ground.

People need to think about the impact they are having on their parties. If you can't be confident that you are a net positive to the majority of groups you find yourself in then perhaps you need to do something about that to change it for the better. Having a gradual upswing in the difficulty of the msq seems like the only way SE has seen to make people evaluate that.

If only there was an objective indicator of how well they were playing...
Shame.

I guess people will just have to be ignorant of their level of performance.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Because mobs that use high-damage dots and are aggroless is not something we see on trash a lot, mostly. The final long pull was just as many mobs, but wasn't an issue since no archers.

Which promotes an actual change in tactics over the standard "pull entire room and spam your aoes." Granted, getting DPS players to even do that can be asking too much lately...

Wouldn't it be nice if Leg Sweep actual had a use? Or DPS were meant to take down this priority mobs so they don't overwhelm the healer? And wouldn't this diversifying gameplay necessitate more healing, thus giving healers more to do that isn't damage. Furthermore, contrary to your bias persistence the only way content can ever be harder is through OHKO attacks. Here we have an example—one you provided—which doesn't do that.

I think people forget what a "basic opener" was in HW. More to the point, the issue is that people always define anything as basic, and the "blame the bads" was more that no matter what seems to happen, forum culture assumes its faceroll. The only way it will ever not is if it escalates to a point where it simply can't be done.

And you seem to forget Zurvan Extreme is midcore content, i.e, endgame. I reiterate, you have no business joining an EX party if you cannot perform a "basic opener." That is literally asking the bear minimum for harder content. An equivalent would be taking an advance computer programming course despite having no idea how C++ or SQL work then complaining it's too difficult. Should we dumb everything down because you took it upon yourself to skip ahead? If you can't perform an opener, why are you joining a Zurvan farm party?
Because you (generalization) were lazy.

As for the forums claiming everything is easy. You're inferring nonsense. Thordan, Sephirot and Nidhogg are all talked about as fairly challenging EX Primals; the former two being highly praised. Even Sophia, generally considered one of the easiest HW Extremes still garners praise for her mechanics. Despite being the easiest tier in HW, Creator is widely considered good; with Cruise Chase and Alexander Prime both being highlights. Even Halicarnassus, Ex Death and Kefka are well liked.

None of these fights are considered faceroll, Sophia notwithstanding. You're simply blinded by your own bias.

I even think sometimes trying to lift people up can be worse. Like the harder content now seems to be making me worse as a healer, not better; i overheal too much, i can't dps as much, burn through mp faster, etc. The way they set up the encounters kind of makes it much harder to do the healer meta we are used to (dps as much as possible, heal as little, rely more on dots/don't keep them topped off always.) If you make it harder, it might paradoxically make people seem worse, because they content is harder and they don't always rise to meet it. I mean, if you do poor dps on these easy dungeons, what happens if you now have to do a hard one?

IDK...i'm not arguing for any nerfs, although i am worried if they boosted the 24 man thats coming too. Just at this point i pretty much expect they'll start making it harder till it hits a point where they will need to course correct again.

Have you considered, you know, not doing that? Everything you described is easily remedied by adapting to the situation and learning. Experiment with what you can get away with. Did the party actually need that extra Medica when the aoe damage barely did 40%? No, Medica II will tick them up just fine. You're only a worse healer if you stubbornly stick to a preferred method even if its proving less efficient. Overhealing and dealing less DPS tends to happen when you don't yet know a fight. I overheal plenty because I haven't figured out all the timings. Not to mention, I have to adapt to players who are equally unprepared or new. With practice and repetition, this becomes easier. Regardless, you're forgetting these players already experience what you described except instead of a progressive difficulty curve to better ease them into EX and Savage. They see a sudden spike because FFXIV typically does a horrible job pacing.

If everything stays easy, people become complacent, which is what results in the sudden shock when you try moving up a tier and nothing you've done works. This is why we see people whine about Shinryu normal. The game conditioned them to expect a casual stroll, then ramped up the challenge seemingly from nowhere.

Nonetheless, you are correct some people won't rise to the occasion. Better they quit at Alphascape than breeze through an easy alternative only to get blasted by frustrated people in Sazaku EX because she's a sudden jump.

[RiyahArp]

Wouldn't it be nice if Leg Sweep actual had a use?

No, it wouldn't, especially on trash. Isolating the one mob you need to stun is not fun. Maybe on bosses, but you can't really react fast enough if the stunner fails to do so. The more tactics you add, the more ways players can fail, and apparently you can't trust the players to do well with easy content now. Why on earth add more?

As for the forums claiming everything is easy. You're inferring nonsense. Thordan, Sephirot and Nidhogg are all talked about as fairly challenging EX Primals; the former two being highly praised.

3 fights out of how many?

And a lot of ex primals are considered easy by forums, and some savage tiers. Thordan ex is a high bar to not be considered faceroll.

Have you considered, you know, not doing that? Everything you described is easily remedied by adapting to the situation and learning.

Yeah, I have. The problem is they increased the speed of incoming damage, so when i try to slowball it, the dps can now die from an attack that they could survive if topped off. And the mechanics that affect us all are now faster and rely on greater raid positioning and awareness, so they take hits more often. The bosses feel slightly tuned a bit more, so they also take more damage with more spent in mp. I'm generally aware of overhealing and stuff, but when attacks now start doing 26k damage or more stacked, when it was 14k, you're gambling a lot more on raid members keeping themselves up. If i gamble wrong, and they die to damage they could survive, it doesn't matter if i did 500 more dps when they do 500 less due to raise penalty.

And honestly, the least appealing thing in the world are this game's ex trials. By the time I've cleared, I'm so sick of the thing that I don't even care about the mounts. The idea that casuals are just chomping at the bit to get into them is hilarious to me, how you feel about pagos is how some feel about them.

If everything stays easy, people become complacent, which is what results in the sudden shock when you try moving up a tier and nothing you've done works. This is why we see people whine about Shinryu normal.

No, shin was just a jump up. I usually compare it to nid story, especially the add phases. I mean, 3 mobs with one wandering for Nid, 3 sets of adds with 3 meteor drops that can easily kill players with shin. But this is the faceroll thing again, you can't even say it was harder, because peopel jump on you over it.

And it doesn't matter if gradual, you still reach a point where you bow out. Its just better that its in ex content than in story, because the former doesn't gate content for people.

[Dualgunner]

No, it wouldn't, especially on trash. Isolating the one mob you need to stun is not fun.

Fun police Riyah at it again. If you like something she doesn't you're objectively wrong.

3 fights out of how many?

And a lot of ex primals are considered easy by forums, and some savage tiers. Thordan ex is a high bar to not be considered faceroll.

In Heavensward alone?
Bismarck EX
Ravana EX
Thordan EX
Nidhogg EX
Sephirot EX
Sophia EX
Zurvan EX

So...7. 3/7.

[RiyahArp]

Fun police Riyah at it again. If you like something she doesn't you're objectively wrong.

Oh hush, bourne asked me specifically if it would be fun if i could stun things. I said no, it wouldnt. If i tank, (which i do rarely) i can stun bosses if need be, but it's never particularly fun because of the short window to do it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

No, it wouldn't, especially on trash. Isolating the one mob you need to stun is not fun. Maybe on bosses, but you can't really react fast enough if the stunner fails to do so. The more tactics you add, the more ways players can fail, and apparently you can't trust the players to do well with easy content now. Why on earth add more?

Because it had a layer of actual strategy to an otherwise standard fight? Leg Sweep may as well not exist with how utterly worthless stuns are in this game. One aspect I love about Deep Dungeon is needing Stuns and Silences at the ready because mobs on the higher floors will ruin your day. It's far more interesting than pulling everything to an arbitrary wall and spamming your aoe abilities until they all die. At least it is for me.

3 fights out of how many?

And a lot of ex primals are considered easy by forums, and some savage tiers. Thordan ex is a high bar to not be considered faceroll.

Do you have selective reading? I listed no less than eight fights. Even counting only the EX Primals, Dual covered only three of them are "faceroll." Nonetheless, a lot of the EX Primals in Stormblood are easy, relatively speaking. Lakshmi and Byakko are especially bad. The forums say it's all easy doesn't magically mean they aren't wrong. People saying such typically use older primals as a frame of reference.

Yeah, I have. The problem is they increased the speed of incoming damage, so when i try to slowball it, the dps can now die from an attack that they could survive if topped off. And the mechanics that affect us all are now faster and rely on greater raid positioning and awareness, so they take hits more often. The bosses feel slightly tuned a bit more, so they also take more damage with more spent in mp. I'm generally aware of overhealing and stuff, but when attacks now start doing 26k damage or more stacked, when it was 14k, you're gambling a lot more on raid members keeping themselves up. If i gamble wrong, and they die to damage they could survive, it doesn't matter if i did 500 more dps when they do 500 less due to raise penalty.

And honestly, the least appealing thing in the world are this game's ex trials. By the time I've cleared, I'm so sick of the thing that I don't even care about the mounts. The idea that casuals are just chomping at the bit to get into them is hilarious to me, how you feel about pagos is how some feel about them.

No offense, but it sounds like you need more practice experimenting with what you can get away with. Alphascape normal isn't not tuned that drastically higher than its predecessors. Nevertheless, there comes a point where people dying isn't your fault. If they keep getting hit by Larboard/Starboard in o11n, there is only so much a healer can do. If they die, well, it's on them. Holding back your DPS spells in case people mess up will only make you a complacent healer, which, ironically, makes adapting to a given situation much harder. Back in HW, I often find "pure healers" far worse at healing than DPS centric ones. Why? Because only the latter knew how to maximize their heals whereas the former burned through the MP panicking and couldn't adapt.

While you may feel that way. I grow increasingly disappointed with some of them. Shinryu feels incomplete, Lakshmi and Byakko are laughable, and while I enjoy Susano quite a bit, he's fairly easy. Tsukiyomi is probably the best designed, though I have yet to do Suzaku EX. That being said, I never said casuals were "chomping at the bit," I simply preferred when EXs weren't an afterthought that die within a lockout. This another reason I want the normal modes to be more challenging, that way people who aren't interested in harder content still have something to look forward to. And if they find EX too daunting a task, they're not bored with the easier alternative. Instead, we see people whining everything is too hard and have an expansion where all the optional raider content got nerfed save for arguably two Savage fights and Ultimate.

Keep in mind, you may find EXs a slog but plenty enjoy them. Comparing them to Pagos is laughably disingenuous. There's a stark difference between mindlessly grinding brain dead trash mobs and actually being asked to turn your brain on.

No, shin was just a jump up. I usually compare it to nid story, especially the add phases. I mean, 3 mobs with one wandering for Nid, 3 sets of adds with 3 meteor drops that can easily kill players with shin. But this is the faceroll thing again, you can't even say it was harder, because peopel jump on you over it.

And it doesn't matter if gradual, you still reach a point where you bow out. Its just better that its in ex content than in story, because the former doesn't gate content for people.

Because it wasn't hard. That doesn't mean it isn't a good difficulty for story mode. You seem to have this strange belief those things are mutually exclusive. Neither Shinryu nor Nidhogg are hard unless you're wholly inexperienced. They are, however, properly tuned for a story fight.