We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Magic-Mal]

I'll try to answer all 3 in one.

Well, I am pretty sure Moro was specifically talking about how you blamed raids and raiders for all your issues with gear, and how you claimed you want BiS, yet you didn't meld the proper BiS stats for your job.

It confused me when I saw it too, and it likely confused her as well. Like, you said BiS was important to you multiple times and you are sitting there melding non-BiS materia. I'm sorry, but it was very confusing to see that.

You are just doing it for now because you are waiting till next tier then? Skill speed is bad for BRD right now, next tier likely won't change that, so if you want more damage going into 4.4 I would suggest changing it. Unless you are planning on buying a full set of the new crafted gear.

Okay to be 100% serious for once, I really didn't know the stats changed and no one told me so. Was joking around with the button-pressing stuff. Never had any raider friends in SB. Back in HW Skill Speed was better than Determination so I just followed that. Even knowing now that Determination is actually better it still doesn't change my desire for perfect BiS through different gear sets. I just focus my attention on a different 3rd stat.

That doesn't change that skill speed is horrible on a BRD, and will cause GCD clipping. If you're playing it properly, you already spend a lot of time double-weaving in 2/3 of your songs, and, if you have high-enough Crit to proc both of your DoTs fast enough, most of your time in AP should be spent at 3- or 4-stacks (+12% or +16% haste). Is that not fast enough? I personally hate it because each clipped GCD is less damage overall.

You do realize that, unless you actually get enough Skill Speed to reach the next GCD tier, each and every point after your current threshold is worthless, yes? For example, the High Crit and 2x Tomestone ring builds for BRD put us at 983 Skill Speed; that's a 2.40 second GCD (threshold for 2.40 GCD is 982 Skill Speed). The next tier above that - 2.39 GCD - requires 1049 skill speed. If you sit at 1048, you still have a 2.40 GCD, and those 65 points of Skill Speed are worthless. You don't go any faster.

If you're adamant about having BiS or BiS equivalent, you don't blatantly meld suboptimal stats on to it. That's the opposite of BiS... I guess if you want to clip, then you do you... but it's suboptimal for the job. There's no changing that.

I did notice things like Pitch Perfect can clip a little into the GCDs but I didn't think it was game-breaking because as I said to Miste, I didn't know the stats changed. I wasn't blatantly melding wrong. I was unknowingly though, as I find out now.

2.40 and that's the limit? Well, just going to say, you can definitely go faster... You just need uh, a lot more than 982.

As for your gripe about O2S and not winning loot: why didn't you buy the loot you wanted with the pages you received? 12 books is 2 pieces of gear - head, gloves, or boots. If BRD is your main, buy gear with your pages. I'd have to double check my gearset, but I know the headpiece that tier was BiS, and I'm fairly certain the boots were, too. Voila! Two pieces of BiS. That's the purpose of you getting a page each clear - in the event you don't get the piece you need, after a few weeks you can buy it. Sure there as aspects of the page system that could be worked upon, but it's much better than Coil, where if you didn't receive your loot as a drop, you were completely SOL until the next week, or the next, or the next.

It’s not the best situation, but I’ll take waiting and buying gear with pages over not having a system like it at all. I had to buy most of my gear in both Deltascape and Sigmascape with books thanks to RNG. Sure, I couldn’t use them on off-classes, but since I don’t play them nearly as much as I do BRD, the i360 gear is more than enough for them. Only reason I would need i370 is if I got real ballsy suddenly and decided to learn how to heal UwU—which isn’t on my list of things I want to do at the moment (maybe at a later date though).

Oh I did buy stuff. BRD is still wearing the hat. I actually got those very boots and my MCH wears them now. My SMN has O2S boots too. I can't remember which jewelry pieces they have but both have either hand-me-downs from BRD or what ever I got from extra books. Regardless I still can't stand the system. That's why I'm here!

I'm with both Moro and Miste in that I feel your blaming of raiders and raids are misplaced with regards to your personal gear progression. Whether or not this was your intent, I don't know, but it's certainly came off that way as this thread progressed. I understand wanting to only do content with friends (I started the game very much like that), but if your progression stagnates because they are busy/aren’t logging in/etc., that’s not the fault of the game or raiders either. Not trying to argue; I’m just saying.

I guess I'll try to explain better now that it's no longer heated. I never hated raiders or blames raiders for anything directly except for the change to the Diadem stuff. I was actually blaming raids mostly and in that, blaming the devs.

The devs balance everything to be below i370(soon to be i400) without any other kind of options "because raids" -> When we did have an exception happen raiders complained(not saying you complained). And gear drops were nerfed and ilvl was nerfed to i205. This is when I included blame on the raiders. -> after that everything stagnated in my eyes, even when I was raiding myself. Because I still wanted to see other things that gave gear -> I believe at least, that now Yoshida is afraid to make any changes because he doesn't want to upset anyone anymore -> I make that section of the OP. -> Fire -> We're here!

Why didn't you kill O4N each week? It only takes seven weeks to obtain the same token you waited twelve for. This just adds credence to Lorgana's argument. You aren't actively taking advantage of the systems in place, but merely complaining about them. I won't deny there could be improvements made, but when you aren't even bothering to use what's there, your complaints ring a tad hollow.

Good question. I had to think for a few minutes why I didn't and I think it was literally because it had determination on it. YES I know Weapon Damage is what matters but I'm very stubborn when it comes to secondary stats and it's not the first time I've been told. Of course at that time I didn't know that Determination was actually good. I ended up buying the MCH weapon instead.

I think because there were no weapons with stats I wanted I just stopped playing PvE stuff completely, including raids and went back to PvP again, got bored, and took an 8 month break. Came back and saw the Tsukuyomi Bow and had plans for that until I remembered I had an i320 weapon. Then I saw the tome bow and realized that was better and alot easier to get. Is that all stupid? I bet it is. But I would still like more options.

[Miste]

Okay to be 100% serious for once, I really didn't know the stats changed and no one told me so. Was joking around with the button-pressing stuff. Never had any raider friends in SB. Back in HW Skill Speed was better than Determination so I just followed that. Even knowing now that Determination is actually better it still doesn't change my desire for perfect BiS through different gear sets. I just focus my attention on a different 3rd stat.

Ah okay, well just remember expansions change things so keep an eye on guides for BiS and stuff if you wanna try for it.

The devs balance everything to be below i370(soon to be i400) without any other kind of options "because raids" -> When we did have an exception happen raiders complained(not saying you complained). And gear drops were nerfed and ilvl was nerfed to i205. This is when I included blame on the raiders. -> after that everything stagnated in my eyes, even when I was raiding myself. Because I still wanted to see other things that gave gear -> I believe at least, that now Yoshida is afraid to make any changes because he doesn't want to upset anyone anymore -> I make that section of the OP. -> Fire -> We're here!

There is a problem with this though, the problem being is the diadem information in your OP is incorrect.

Diadem 1.0 was never nerfed. Some raiders complained, yes, but the gear stayed i210 (same item level as the savage gear at the time). So SE ignored the raider complaints.

Even Diadem 2.0 they added a weapon better than savage one, it was i280 when savage was i275, if SE was really listening to raider complaints why did they do the same exact thing twice? (and this time it wasn't even just the same item level, it was higher!)

It makes no sense.

The majority of players complaining about that i280 weapon was actually relic grinders because the relic had only been completed to i275 nine days before them adding this i280 weapon, some raiders might have complained too, but relic definitely seemed to be the main sticking point and majority issue since it took people a long grind investment only for it to be beaten 9 days after finally completing it.

As I said to another poster in this thread. You cannot claim diadem didn't come back after the end of HW all because of raiders, since raiders were not the only community of players who complained about diadem. All types of players had criticism about diadem as a whole. The general community consensus that I saw at the time was Diadem was not good content, and in my opinion it wasn't, not because of the gear, simply the content itself.

So unless you can prove diadem was taken away from us solely due to raiders complaining about the gear in it back in 3.1, with some kind of statement from SE to confirm it, then you shouldn't be using this as a reason to be upset at raiders and/or blame them for things.

[Claviusnex]

- snip -

Even Diadem 2.0 they added a weapon better than savage one, it was i280 when savage was i275, if SE was really listening to raider complaints why did they do the same exact thing twice? (and this time it wasn't even just the same item level, it was higher!)

It makes no sense.

- snip -

Actually there is some logic to this. It is very common for players in MMO's to do content they don't want to because the reward is something too good to pass up. In fact it is a common complaint among raiders that they feel forced to run optional or lower level content in order to obtain an item for progression. Diadem 2.0 having the highest ilvl would have this type negative incentive that could draw the higher skill folks. The result is a longer life for Diadem as more players went there. Whether SE was smart enough to think this is debatable but the underlying theory is one used by many MMO's to appeal to the high level player to provide additional players in content below their skill level.

[Nezerius]

Diadem 1.0 was never nerfed. Some raiders complained, yes, but the gear stayed i210 (same item level as the savage gear at the time). So SE ignored the raider complaints.

Except it was nerfed. While they didn't nerf the iLvl of the gear, they did nerf the droprate of the i210 stuff. The nerfed droprate, along with the high change to get i210 gear with terrible stats/stat combinations, was enough for the majority to completely drop Diadem. I remember this clearly, because my FC was unfortunate enough to finally unlock the hard mode difficulty shortly after the nerf.

So yes, they did listen to the raiders with Diadem 1.0.

I'd argue that they also listened to the raiders with Diadem 2.0, with how ridiculously rare the i280 weapon was. You were lucky to even see a successful Emergency Mission, and even then there'd only be a chance for one person to get a random i280 weapon (not tied to their job) with random stats (which may not even be good).

So unless you can prove diadem was taken away from us solely due to raiders complaining about the gear in it back in 3.1, with some kind of statement from SE to confirm it, then you shouldn't be using this as a reason to be upset at raiders and/or blame them for things.

While I'm sure others also complained about Diadem 1.0's lack of fun content, raiders were at least partially to blame. The i210 gear, with some luck on stat rolls, threatened to make the Gordias gear obsolete (which was a big deal, with how difficult Gordias was). The devs made sure that didn't happen by nerfing the droprate on Diadem gear. The outcome: Diadem became obsolete, as the one thing that got most players to run it was no longer worthwhile to go after.

[Magic-Mal]

Except it was nerfed. While they didn't nerf the iLvl of the gear, they did nerf the droprate if the i210 stuff. The nerfed droprate, along with the high change to get i210 gear with terrible stats/stat combinations, was enough for the majority to completely drop Diadem. I remember this clearly, because my FC was unfortunate enough to finally unlock the hard mode difficulty shortly after the nerf.

So yes, they did listen to the raiders with Diadem 1.0.

I'd argue that they also listened to the raiders with Diadem 2.0, with how ridiculously rare the i280 weapon was. You were lucky to even see a successful Emergency Mission, and even then there'd only be a chance for one person to get a random i280 weapon (not tied to their job) with random stats (which may not even be good).

Yeah I knew it had to had been something. If not the ilvl, it was something else. Because I also clearly remember the Death Of Diadem. It wasn't a slow death, it was an instant execution. Like alive one day and just stone-cold dead the next. Wasn't it because they nerfed dino island so badly that everything else was pointless? They basically nerfed the droprate so low that it was really difficult to get a high ilvl piece.

I remember only getting a couple "eh" pieces before it was killed.

May be a unpopular opinion, but we got what people asked. So you cannot say they don't listen to us.

- They gave us extreme primal and raids with a considerable difficulty (or acceptable difficulty). People complain it was "too hard, please nerf". Consequence: Nerfed and easy trials on release and high level raids easier compared to Coil of Bahamut and the first steps of Alexander.

- They add some dungeons with some exploration or different paths. People ignores everything and go straight to the end, speed running multi-pull, even blaming those who are "slow", in order to finish as soon as possible. Consequence: All dungeons are linear, straight forward, with nothing more than mobs to kill.

- People don't want to put any effort and want's everything easy and quick, getting frustrated quick when a single wipe happens. Consequence: Mindless grind, which can be long, but is easy enough to clear pushing 2 buttons.

- People buying every thing is put for sale in Mog-station, regardless they are basically glamour, even paying 6€ for a emote, over and over. Consequence: Mog-Station constantly adding things that we should unlock playing the game normally, because they know will be purchased.

Sorry to say, but was the community who is turning this game into what you call "bad". For me it is still enjoyable and I won't stop playing or say "Devs are lazy". I rather say stop complaining about the hard difficulty. Also, asking things such "give us more interesting dungeons with labyrinth layout and more exploration" when you know people will exploit the quickest and straightest forward path, ignoring the rest of the dungeon, is absurd.

Sorry, but in my opinion, players should change first their attitude if we want devs change theirs. They will adapt whatever players will do.

For me, developers listen to us way too much.

While I would still like more complex dungeons, I do agree. I think the dev team listens to every complaint too much. The issue with that though is that everyone feels that their complaint should be listened to.. at some point everyone has at least one complaint and no one wants to be told their complaint doesn't matter.

----Disclaimer: This is my opinion and personal experience.----

A really great post. Agreed.

Sorry I'm just now reading all this stuff lol.

[Ignacius]

So, having read a lot of this, I do think there are some things that SE could do for the next expansion:

-SE could make more open world elements both more challenging and rewarding (such as FATEs).

-SE could create a sort of mid-tier, instanced, generated raid encounter. I have previously suggested a sort of 8-man randomized chain-dungeon using our airships that have us do everything from randomized trial-like encounters to gathering.

-If these two are done, SE wouldn't have to put relics behind locked instance content, yet they'd have a viable Diadem/Eureka alternative.

-Tune up the dungeon trash mechanic difficulty (the avoidable damage), but gate each pack to keep the speed expectation down

-Shift the new zone builds to emphasize more walking and ground riding. All mounts will likely fly simply because non-flying mounts don't get a lot of use anymore, but that can be changed if SE really want us to experience the landscapes. They have to put something out there, though. It would be a waste if it was just junk in the way. I think a good amount of obstacles and path-picking would be a good way to design future environments.

[Miste]

Except it was nerfed. While they didn't nerf the iLvl of the gear, they did nerf the droprate of the i210 stuff.

I can't find any proof of this. Can you give me the source from SE showing they nerfed it? Because I can't find anything that shows they nerfed it anywhere, be it drop rate or item level.

Even if Diadem was nerfed in some way, unless you can find some statement from SE saying they nerfed Diadem solely because of raider complaints and that all the stuff about diadem was nerfed or changed due to raider complaints then you still have no argument to stand on to be mad at/blame raiders for it.

In the end all decisions are SE's choices. They choose what to do and what complaints or requests to listen to. It is all their final decision, if you want to put blame then it should be on them for choosing to listen to those complaints. Or they might have even had an entirely different reason for doing something and you are just assuming.

Like even if any of that is true, it happened in 3.1, like that is a ridiculously long time to be holding a grudge against raiders for. Not to mention many of the raiders who complained might not even play the game anymore and the ones you are blaming now had nothing to do with what did or did not happen to Diadem.

I mean I could blame casuals and hold a grudge that the game is getting easier due to so many casual complaints about stuff being "too hard" and blame casuals for our savage raids getting easier because some complain, but I don't because I don't generalize and I also know to blame SE for listening to it and making the final decision to nerf things.

Actually there is some logic to this. It is very common for players in MMO's to do content they don't want to because the reward is something too good to pass up.

You are taking it out of context. I didn't say it doesn't make sense for getting people to do the content. I said it doesn't make sense that IF SE was listening to raider complaints that they would just do the same thing the raiders complained about for a second time and even double down by making it higher item level than savage instead of just the same item level.

[Nezerius]

I can't find any proof of this. Can you give me the source from SE showing they nerfed it? Because I can't find anything that shows they nerfed it anywhere, be it drop rate or item level.

After some digging, the only thing I found was this update on November 24, 2015: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...20#post3449020
The note on droprate changes seems very vague (which isn't rare for SE to do), so it's hard to tell if they did adjust the droprate of NMs and "certain monsters", or if they simply haven't adjusted droprate

I just remember that Diadem died pretty fast after that, with a lot of complaints being about the lower amount of i210 gear dropping.

Even if Diadem was nerfed in some way, unless you can find some statement from SE saying they nerfed Diadem solely because of raider complaints and that all the stuff about diadem was nerfed or changed due to raider complaints then you still have no argument to stand on to be mad at/blame raiders for it.

In the end all decisions are SE's choices. They choose what to do and what complaints or requests to listen to. It is all their final decision, if you want to put blame then it should be on them for choosing to listen to those complaints. Or they might have even had an entirely different reason for doing something and you are just assuming.

They're obviously not going to state that they nerfed something because of x group complaining about y feature, because it's not a professional thing to do. And you're right, ultimately it's SE's decision, but it's a decision based on what they think is best for the playerbase. That decision just happened to line up with the complaints coming from raiders.

Like even if any of that is true, it happened in 3.1, like that is a ridiculously long time to be holding a grudge against raiders for. Not to mention many of the raiders who complained might not even play the game anymore and the ones you are blaming now had nothing to do with what did or did not happen to Diadem.

I've been a raider for most of my playtime in XIV, except during Midas. It's kinda difficult to have a grudge against myself.

You are taking it out of context. I didn't say it doesn't make sense for getting people to do the content. I said it doesn't make sense that IF SE was listening to raider complaints that they would just do the same thing the raiders complained about for a second time and even double down by making it higher item level than savage instead of just the same item level.

Except the i280 weapon was so rare, that it might've not even existed at all. If they had actually doubled down on it, they'd have done so with a guaranteed emergency mission with every Diadem map, along with multiple weapons as reward from finishing it.

[Miste]

After some digging, the only thing I found was this update on November 24, 2015: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...20#post3449020
The note on droprate changes seems very vague (which isn't rare for SE to do), so it's hard to tell if they did adjust the droprate of NMs and "certain monsters", or if they simply haven't adjusted droprate

Yeah, that is too vague to use to blame raiders for like some others in this thread are doing.

Going by the quote from that section:
"The following adjustments have been made to “The Diadem” as a result of balance changes to the Duty Finder:"

Maybe SE was concerned about the wait times for dungeons and void ark in DF. Diadem gear basically removed any need to run void ark (even though it was released at the same time as Diadem, Diadem basically made void ark dead on release) or experts anymore. My boyfriend and I played during this time and we recall really bad DF wait times on experts when Diadem came out.

Just speculation though, because this header doesn't really make sense for them just nerfing it to nerf it, although it might just be a way to hide true intentions.

I just remember that Diadem died pretty fast after that, with a lot of complaints being about the lower amount of i210 gear dropping.

If I was to make an educated guess, that change might have been to stop everyone camping Dino Island and no where else. Like an entire zone and all anyone did was go to Dino Island. If that were the case then it was not raider complaints that did it, simply that SE likely wanted people to actually do things in other areas.

But that is just a guess, the information is too vague. Also the players might have perceived less i210 gear when it might have not been the case. Simply not enough data to go on and no way to test it since Diadem 1.0 is gone.

They're obviously not going to state that they nerfed something because of x group complaining about y feature, because it's not a professional thing to do. And you're right, ultimately it's SE's decision, but it's a decision based on what they think is best for the playerbase. That decision just happened to line up with the complaints coming from raiders.

Of course it is unprofessional, and of course they wouldn't do that. My point in saying that was simply that there is no proof to generalize all raiders and blame us all for Diadem.

I've been a raider for most of my playtime in XIV, except during Midas. It's kinda difficult to have a grudge against myself.

Wasn't saying you had a grudge. My initial response was to someone else and is due to some other posters in this thread using Diadem to hold a grudge and blame raiders for it. You just replied to me about it so I am explaining my logic, it was not an accusation.

Except the i280 weapon was so rare, that it might've not even existed at all. If they had actually doubled down on it, they'd have done so with a guaranteed emergency mission with every Diadem map, along with multiple weapons as reward from finishing it.

Still doesn't prove that SE did any of this due to raiders. They can have their own reasons for doing things after all, and it may be because they noticed balance was being thrown off making content dead too soon (you have to remember that i280 weapon also invalidated the relic, not just the savage weapon, so raid gear is not the only thing on the table here).

The gear in this game already gets worthless quite quickly, all of it only lasts 6 months already, dropping Diadem at the 3 month mark in a tier making a lot of other gear and content options almost worthless immediately might not have been their intention.

The idea that Diadem and Void Ark were released in the same patch and one drops i200 gear and the other drops i210 shows there maaay have been an oversight. Just my own speculations, but there is still the general idea that there were many other reasons SE could have done whatever they did.

[Nezerius]

Yeah, that is too vague to use to blame raiders for like some others in this thread are doing.

Going by the quote from that section:
"The following adjustments have been made to “The Diadem” as a result of balance changes to the Duty Finder:"

Maybe SE was concerned about the wait times for dungeons and void ark in DF. Diadem gear basically removed any need to run void ark (even though it was released at the same time as Diadem, Diadem basically made void ark dead on release) or experts anymore. My boyfriend and I played during this time and we recall really bad DF wait times on experts when Diadem came out.

Just speculation though, because this header doesn't really make sense for them just nerfing it to nerf it, although it might just be a way to hide true intentions.

Which is why I said that raiders were partially to blame, not to be blamed entirely for it. And yea, SE generally leaves things vague if they need to report on a nerf like that.
As for the DF wait times, that seemed to have been a different issue that got fixed in the December 7 hotfix (scroll down a bit in the link I posted).

If I was to make an educated guess, that change might have been to stop everyone camping Dino Island and no where else. Like an entire zone and all anyone did was go to Dino Island. If that were the case then it was not raider complaints that did it, simply that SE likely wanted people to actually do things in other areas.

But that is just a guess, the information is too vague. Also the players might have perceived less i210 gear when it might have not been the case. Simply not enough data to go on and no way to test it since Diadem 1.0 is gone.

If that were the case, people would've found another effective way of farming i210 gear, and the players that farmed for it before the nerf would've kept on going back in.
That didn't happen, since Diadem pretty much died, and stayed dead.

Of course it is unprofessional, and of course they wouldn't do that. My point in saying that was simply that there is no proof to generalize all raiders and blame us all for Diadem.

Like I said earlier in this post, partial blame.

Wasn't saying you had a grudge. My initial response was to someone else and is due to some other posters in this thread using Diadem to hold a grudge and blame raiders for it. You just replied to me about it so I am explaining my logic, it was not an accusation.

Fair enough.

Still doesn't prove that SE did any of this due to raiders. They can have their own reasons for doing things after all, and it may be because they noticed balance was being thrown off making content dead too soon (you have to remember that i280 weapon also invalidated the relic, not just the savage weapon, so raid gear is not the only thing on the table here).

Their decision still lined up with the raider's complaints, so we'll never know for sure. And I definitely remember about the HW relic, because I had gone for it as well. That said, once I found out about the hilariously bad RNG to even obtain an i280 weapon, I wasn't too bothered about it.