So, how is Pagos?

[BillyKaplan]

I mean, I kind of wonder if the whole recycled instance thing isn't just another part of killing the train.

At this point I feel like a better design would've been to get rid of the NMs and give you some other ways to get what they're dropping. There's really no reason to leave in a functionality the developers so vehemently oppose.

[Solarra]

At this point I feel like a better design would've been to get rid of the NMs and give you some other ways to get what they're dropping. There's really no reason to leave in a functionality the developers so vehemently oppose.

The problem is the whole design revolves around fates, just like Diadem. We tell the devs we don't really like them but they seem completely stuck on the idea that this is the best way to do open-world content (ok, I know Eureka is instanced but hopefully you get what I mean).
When Anemos came out there was a lot of criticism and suggestions of how Eureka could be improved:
People asked for dailies or something similar to Hamlet Defence - we didn't get them
We asked for treasure-hunting and reasons to explore and what did they give us? The bunny fate...

[BillyKaplan]

The problem is the whole design revolves around fates, just like Diadem.

I didn't run Diadem much but the few times I was in it it was FATE bouncing. And with a party of friends, it was actually fun. That's why Anemos was anywhere between tolerable and fun for a lot of people.
Pagos rejects the concepts of NMs with how the devs went about it. You no longer have the one or two NMs no one can be bothered with spawning while the other NMs get spawned anywhere else (Pazuzu was the only NM in that area I saw being reliably spawned, and I've no idea if that's still the case given you can get his feathers elsewhere now). Instead, you're lucky to see an NM spawn at all. Some NMs seemingly can't be spawned within a single lockout. That's not a design that revolves around FATEs, that's a design that revolves around the mindless grind and occasionally, maybe, gives you an NM for your trouble.

An fc mate of mine who loved the social interactions in Anemos went into Pagos today. Not half an hour later he was out, swearing off the content and reconsidering his sub in one fell swoop. SB has been meh to him so far with Anemos actually being a highlight. Pagos wrecked that.

[Solarra]

Pagos rejects the concepts of NMs with how the devs went about it... you're lucky to see an NM spawn at all.

Point taken.
What I was trying to get at is that Pagos is basically the same design as Anemos only with a severe nerf to the rate of NM spawns introduced as a way of derailing the train. That isn't going to work; take out the NMs (or reduce them as they have) and there's nothing left except grind, which only a very small proportion of players seem to enjoy. If the train was such a bad thing that it had to be countered, then the devs needed to come up with alternative ways for people to play and they haven't done that.

I really can't see what harm the train did personally, it had people playing together and co-operating and it also helped low-level players catch up. It feels to me that the devs are either out of ideas or on such a tight schedule that only minimal tweaks can be made to content after release. Their solution to the train was relatively quick and easy to implement, but it has caused much bigger problems than the one it was meant to solve.

[Edax]

Point taken.

I really can't see what harm the train did personally, it had people playing together and co-operating and it also helped low-level players catch up. It feels to me that the devs are either out of ideas or on such a tight schedule that only minimal tweaks can be made to content after release. Their solution to the train was relatively quick and easy to implement, but it has caused much bigger problems than the one it was meant to solve.

I'm sure the devs got pissed because entire sections of the Eureka Amenos map and most of the mobs remained entirely untouched because the train allowed players to bypassed the mob grinding all together, so thought they'd FORCE us to get acquainted with each individual mob in Pagos intimately and experience the content they worked so hard to make, even if they had to make the player miserable to do it. Maybe it's revenge, I dunno. They probably saw the train as an exploit like Destiny's loot cave.

[InkstainedGwyn]

They probably saw the train as an exploit like Destiny's loot cave.

This is [one of many reasons] why I'm so angry. The NM train is not an exploit. (I know you're not saying it is, I'm saying this in regards to them changing Eureka as if it was.) All the methods utilized to create it are within game capacity - all it takes is a large group of people, working together (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is one of the definitions of the PVE portion of an MMO.) An exploit is like ungarmax, taking a skill that was not designed to exist (and does not exist within the current UI) but finding a way in which to access the skill elsewhere. An exploit is like the alt+f4 method of skipping cutscenes in MSQ roulette.

Anybody who has played any kind of social game ever understands that even if you leave a trail of breadcrumbs, having thousands/hundreds of thousands of players accessing it means that your "desired path" will be strayed off, deviated from, and adjusted. Even a small handful of people can do this; take a look at practically any D&D/pen-and-paper campaign ever created. A DM can spend hours crafting a puzzle only to have his players ignore it altogether in favour of the random rock he happened to describe that the party has determined holds the key to their campaign - or, after scratching their heads, hit upon an unforeseen weakness that clears the puzzle within seconds.

A good DM encourages exploration, listens to what their players like, adjusts the campaign so that the players are having fun. That's what a game is - a collaboration between DM/creator & player. A bad DM forces the party back into the puzzle, changes the rules halfway through so that they can't solve it in any way except the DM's way, and forces the players to sit there for hours until they find the exact thought process that the DM "planned for", even though there are other ways to solve it.

Guess which path XIV has been taking?

A game shouldn't be a railroad (unless it's Ticket to Ride). A game should be a collaboration between DM/devs and players to create a game that is doable by the devs and enjoyable by the players. All of these tantrums because we're not properly appreciating their Anemos intentions are petty and show me that they're more interested in showing off their grand ideas than actually seeing what the players want.

[Lauront]

Like several other things in the game lately, it's meh. A very tedious grind.

Hard to find a party in the limited free time I have during weeks, so it is consigned to weekends for the most part, when I would much rather be doing things I enjoy more, including the very broken frontlines. People are extremely flaky and self-absorbed and parties fall apart rather quickly.

I also used to main BLM but I've grown rather irritated by their design choices for the job, and the relic is no exception.

And yet, it's still less of a disappointment than HoH was, in just about every aspect.