So, how is Pagos?

[Fawkes]

Probably it. Before Anemos, what was the last relic step that involved a somewhat lengthy grind?

The last step of the previous relic was running hard mode primals. The one before that was a light grind. What was the most efficient method of grinding light? Determining if A1S was on bonus, getting a party together and then proceeding to run it as many times as possible within that two-hour window. A1S had Faust (striking dummy) and The Oppressor. Because of the disparity in ilvls, the only mechanics Oppressor had were a line AoE and puddles that remained on the field. Practicing a rotation over and over, boring content, no chance to take a break without slowing progress. Sound familiar? This step only took about 7 hours, though.

Before the light step was cluster acquisition with a daily and weekly quest for clusters, eliminating any need to grind for tomes unless you wanted the weapon immediately.

However, before the cluster step was the umbrite/crystal sand step. This required a maximum of 24,000 tomes for umbrite, with no alternative to get the umbrite. What was the efficient method for farming umbrite? Aetherochemical Research Facility until the sight of it made you sick. Each run took around 20 minutes. This step involved a lengthy grind, but it was released In June 2016 - over two years ago.

While those were the most common ways, when I did those I did not run A1S a single time, and maybe ran ARF once. You had the option to grind the same thing over and over like a maniac, but you could also do plenty of other things. And maybe people spamming A1S with a static couldn't take a break, but I could stop whenever I wanted and do everything at my own pace.

[InkstainedGwyn]

While those were the most common ways, when I did those I did not run A1S a single time, and maybe ran ARF once. You had the option to grind the same thing over and over like a maniac, but you could also do plenty of other things. And maybe people spamming A1S with a static couldn't take a break, but I could stop whenever I wanted and do everything at my own pace.

Same. I've solely farmed light in PVP and dungeons, which I took at my own pace, did when I wanted, and which didn't require people to be at the same step of the relic I was on - and if they weren't the same level I was, got sync'd down to meet me (or vice versa).

[Rokke]

Probably it. Before Anemos, what was the last relic step that involved a somewhat lengthy grind?
...
The relic requires a grind, but it can't include any difficult (requiring skill, not time) content or it would lock out players. That severely limits options. Which part of 800 Alex runs or waiting on FATEs to spawn for beast tribes or doing FATEs (the majority of which are grinding mobs) over and over for crystals or farming the same dungeons for tomes, light or item drops was enjoyable? Any answer is going to include the ability to do other things while grinding and not the content itself.

You didn't need to spam A1S for 7 hours, didn't need to run ARF till you were sick of it. Being able to pick your poison and deal with your choice on your own time made the grind bearable- Not enjoyable, per say, but bearable. The grind was as bad as you made it with the options you used to progress.

Chaining/killing mobs in Pagos is braindead content. Chaining/killing mobs in Anemos (fuel for the train) was and is braindead content. Asking for braindead content to be replaced with braindead content when the only difference between the two is that one allows for more afking shows that it's not the quality of the content people really care about.

The issue with Eureka is that regardless of train or chain the only way to progress is to kill large amounts of X to spawn a bigger X and then go back to killing large amounts of X. Even amongst all the NMs I've fought they're all essentially the exact same fate (kill the big X) with some monster mechanics swapped out. Leves, hamlet defense, hunts, wandering bosses, beast tribes, escort missions, maps, optional quests - theres so many things that could have been alternative means to earning progress in Eureka. The chain could have stayed the "best" way of earning exp/crystals for the people who wanted to throw themselves at it for efficiency's sake and others could have done whatever they fancied and progressed at their own pace. It didn't need to be one monotonous braindead slog.

[Vnolan]

Leves, hamlet defense, hunts, wandering bosses, beast tribes, escort missions, maps, optional quests

All valid requests, but they're being overshadowed by "give me back the train".

[InkstainedGwyn]

All valid requests, but they're being overshadowed by "give me back the train".

Because everybody is well aware that SE isn't going to redesign anything. We'll be lucky if there's any extra changes made at all. The train is the easiest thing they can do that will at least make it bearable.

If we're talking an ideal situation, yeah. I'd love to have the whole thing expanded, exploration reasons added, variety, optional quests, etc. I've just looked at SE's track record and decided to ask for the bare minimum.

[HyoMinPark]

Once the NM train is back, gameplay will be gone and Pagos will be boring.

Personal opinion. Not a fact. My opinion is that, if Pagos had the NM Train, it could finally become bearable content.

Why make Pagos not enjoyable for anyone, just so it is 'tolerable' for some?

As it stands right now, for the vast majority, Pagos is not enjoyable.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have varied content for different types of players rather than limiting what people can do?

Again, as it stands right now, there is no variation in the content within Pagos. The only option is grinding mobs, because the NM train has been nerfed into oblivion. Regardless of what you said, there were small pockets of chain parties in Anemos. I saw people shouting for it; I saw small parties doing it. And, as I said before, I spent enough time in Anemos to get all the weapons, and half of the gear.

Anemos had options (2 of them); Pagos does not.

It's not like anyone really needs the relic.

This is a strawman.

You say I am being selfish but much of the instances in game are not even geared towards someone like me. Do I oppose it? No.

Uh, what? Unless you're a Savage raider saying most content isn't tuned to your level of difficulty, this is incorrect. Nearly everything in this game is tuned to a more casual player. Even jobs were brought down in difficulty from HW to SB for the sole purpose of making them "easier to play".

You are not asking to change it a little or even moderately for quality of life purposes. You want the zerg train, in order to get it over with. You are not looking to enjoy it. If you don't like Pagos that much, don't do it. If there aren't enough people like me, SE will take the hint.

People want options. They don’t want to be forced into doing something they don’t enjoy for something that is designed for every player (Relics are content designed for every player, raiders and non-raiders alike).

You're saying the exact same thing in a way: you don't like the NM Train, because it's boring to you. And you're advocating against giving players a choice in relic content - content designed for everyone to participate in. You clearly aren't looking for the content to be something that can be enjoyed by everyone - you just want it to cater to your specific preferences.

I've done others relics, but that really shouldn't matter. You guys need to stop with the hostility. I said it earlier that is why you will not see people disagreeing all that much.

Then you would know how bad Pagos is when you see people asking for unnerfed Unidentifiable steps or Tomestones grinds instead. At least the steps that needed those items had various options for how to obtain them. I personally farmed light for my BRD Anima through farming Extreme primals for the mount—I did very little A1S spam on my first Anima.

I don't really see the hostility you're saying is here. I think you're interpreting disagreeing with your preferred way of fun as hostility. I'm sorry to say that they are not the same. You aren't a representative of some silent majority of players that think Pagos is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The proof of it being poorly received is in all 3 communities, and on various social media - not just here.

All valid requests, but they're being overshadowed by "give me back the train".

These same requests were made when Anemos was current. We all see how well SE listened to them.

[Aikaal]

Here's my 2 cents about it. I want Pagos to be casual and not an annoying grind. Because personally I have multiple other ways to get better weapons right now. I don't see the point of grinding a "relic" weapon for 60 to 80 hours none stop when a reclear of UwU takes me 50 minutes.

That being said, I'm pretty sure not everyone have the time or the interest of progging difficult content like UwU so they get the worst end of it. If I need to spend 300 hours of grind just to gain additional materias on a high-end game weapon for 5 to 6 months because 5.0. I would rather invest it on other games. I do plan to play other games. FFXIV isn't my life and the content they are releasing right now feels pretty bad. It is similar to when they were developping FFXV during 3.x. Maybe the ressources of SE are invested on the remake of FFVII?

Edit - I guess they released the minion app which I didn't download and will likely never will. I'll boycot any sort of microtransaction and that's what that app is doing.

[Matrinka]

I'd just like some choice in Pagos. You like grinding chains non-stop? Go for it. You like being social while riding the train? Go for it. Both groups can be satisfied. Having the NM train doesn't take away from those who like to grind.

[Marxam]

I just want the grinds to be more reasonable. If you only do the challenge logs you should always get a max of 3 lvls unless you are under lvl 10 in which you should get 5 lvls. So if you are leveling from 20 to 35 it should only take you 5 weeks max with just doing the challenge log. It should not take you 2-3 months to get there. I'm only lvl 23, roughly half way to lvl 24, and that's from 2 weeks of challenge logs only. Why the grind SE?

I'm just going to put these slides here to remind you to check yourself before you wreck yourself.

◆FINAL FANTASY XIV Hotfixes (Aug. 13, 2018)◆

■The following adjustment has been made.
・Lowered the HP of the monsters that appear in the F.A.T.E.s "Down the Rabbit Hole" and "Curiouser and Curiouser".
*Regarding "The Forbidden Land, Eureka Pagos", adjustments will continue to be implemented in gradual order, through next week and beyond.

[remiff]

eureka pagos is really boring,
grind, grind grind and grind.

nerfed too hard fates train is really bad for all the players who have to work,
and light farming is too random, too long and boring .
I hope square enix will not continue that eureka way , anemos was fine but pagos ,...