How to give advice

[Lambdafish]

This thread needs a counter thread called "How to receive advice"

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Why on earth would I blame the devs for other people excluding certain jobs because they decided that catering towards themselves and the meta compositions is more important than being a decent human being online and offline?

No, I blame the human being behind the damn screen, not because the developers can sometimes be incompetent. The developers being incompetent is not an excuse to act like a bully towards other who favor certain classes and then ostracize them from said content. They deserve, so long as they bring the skills to back it up, to enjoy any piece of content as any job with the same amount of importance as you do. Any job can do casual and Savage content, I call bs on that. It's the person playing that job that determines that, not the job itself.

If you're ostracizing someone else from your static simply because of the job they play instead of their own skills and effort at playing said job, then yes, you're being rather toxic.

Unfortunately, we have no way of vetting their skill prior to playing with them. And the sheer number of awful Samurai and Black Mages I have seen do make me hesitant to have one in a random pug group for Savage when their only use is damage. I haven't blocked them outright, but I can't fault people having a bias towards both. They're the only job where if they play lackluster, they contribute nothing.

[luicei375]

I can understand your frustration. A reverse thing happened to me yesterday. I joined leveling roulette as tank because i am doing those for tank mounts, and i got lv 67 dungeon. We had a SCH, who had "The Legend" title, which if you don't know for clearing Ultimate Coil of Bahamut. And our BLM had all diamond gear set, which is for clearing savage.

Anyway, we started. This BLM didn't use any of enmity control actions, aka diversion, lucid dreaming etc. I am used to go into dps stance as a tank while tanking so i did it, but BLM didn't use ANY of enmity actions and at the last boss i had to go into tank stance.

As for SCH, let's just say we wiped 4 times. He didn't use any shields, he didn't use his fairy properly. He tried to spam physick while i was in holmgang waiting for some lustrates... He was so terrible, i couldn't even understand. Without his legend title, i would have thought he was new to the game tbh. (And btw it was a regular pull, i didn't pull 2 stacks or anything because i tried it and we wiped ofc).

I didn't complain. Why? Because they would probably kick me because what do i know right? I am a BLM, SCH, WHM main. I never cleared savage but i know how to not snap agro from tanks and how to properly heal.

People are dicks. I suggest get used to it, because there are a lot of them in this game.

Having cleared UCoB and still playing like shit? Probably bought the clear.

[Nixxe]

Why on earth would I blame the devs for other people excluding certain jobs because they decided that catering towards themselves and the meta compositions is more important than being a decent human being online and offline?

No, I blame the human being behind the damn screen, not because the developers can sometimes be incompetent. The developers being incompetent is not an excuse to act like a bully towards other who favor certain classes and then ostracize them from said content. They deserve, so long as they bring the skills to back it up, to enjoy any piece of content as any job with the same amount of importance as you do. Any job can do casual and Savage content, I call bs on that. It's the person playing that job that determines that, not the job itself.

If you're ostracizing someone else from your static simply because of the job they play instead of their own skills and effort at playing said job, then yes, you're being rather toxic.

What's toxic is the sense of entitlement you have towards other people's time and effort, going so far as to say they should decrease their own chance of achieving their goals simply to accommodate yours.

[Vidu]

What's toxic is the sense of entitlement you have towards other people's time and effort, going so far as to say they should decrease their own chance of achieving their goals simply to accommodate yours.

You're obviously to set the rules for your own PF and exclude anyone you want, but I honestly always found it shortsighted to outright stupid to exclude high personal dps, but non supportive jobs like sam or blm.
Maybe I'm biased because my boyfriend mains a BLM and is pretty amazing at that, but whenever we saw a primal-farm group excluding BLM we felt sorry for them because they just passed on a solid "going to beat enrage"-player.

Midcore players trying to enforce a meta, because they believe thats whats gonna make them hardcore or good (or better) at the game, missed the mark. You can clear any content in the game without the meta and without locking jobs out. (Was it UCoB or UwU that was beat with a non-meta-set-up, including a DRK, pretty close to world first? I think it was UCoB...)

Again: You have the right to lock out jobs, if you want to. Or lalafell. Or anyone who picked the Twin Adders as GC.
But to colour every BLM/SAM with the same brush, maybe because of bad experience or just because of stuff you've heard, seems rather unfair and, well, shortsighted to me.
Enforcing the meta, locking out jobs or asking for "no double jobs!" in content where the LB doesnt matter as much/will fill fast enough for when you need it anyways (so basically anything except Byakko EX, if you want to "cheese" it) doesnt make you pro. To me it mainly shows that you didnt understand that much about the game after all.

I can assure you: BLM and SAM can clear content in the game just as much as every other job can. And even a support-heavy bard will hold the group back, if the player behind it, isnt skilled enough. Its far more about the players skill, than the job - crit-buffs and mana-regens can only make up for so much.
Locking out jobs because you had bad experiences with people playing those jobs or heard things about the "meta" or how those jobs suck, seems rather prejudiced to me.
But you do you - just know that not every BLM/SAM is out there to waste other peoples time or decrease their chances of clearing fights. When properly played, they're pretty good at ensuring that the party meets their goal of killing a thing, since thats what they're best at.

[Sigma-Astra]

What's toxic is the sense of entitlement you have towards other people's time and effort, going so far as to say they should decrease their own chance of achieving their goals simply to accommodate yours.

I've cleared pieces of Savage content and EX trials, along with casual crap on BLM with a SAM in my static. We may not have bested Guardian or Kefka, but that's more or less a lack of group coordination and people still making dumb mistakes (people still want to eat missiles apparently) and honestly, I'm not going for world first numbers, I'm just having fun with clearing the content while trying my best at my job, and so is the rest of my static. None of us thinks of each other holding anyone back or "preventing others from getting their achievements" as you said. We make mistakes as a group, work together as a group, and find enjoyment as a group.

But, if you want to keep sticking your foot in your mouth, be my guess. The meta comps is not the end all to be all formations to play low-end and high-end content with.

I'm not the toxic one here, but you sure are bleeding a lot of arrogance and ego. You do you if you like judging books by their covers first and foremost.

[Sigma-Astra]

Unfortunately, we have no way of vetting their skill prior to playing with them. And the sheer number of awful Samurai and Black Mages I have seen do make me hesitant to have one in a random pug group for Savage when their only use is damage. I haven't blocked them outright, but I can't fault people having a bias towards both. They're the only job where if they play lackluster, they contribute nothing.

While I can understand your perspectives and viewpoints Bourne, I still don't agree with holding a bias and being judgmental towards the classes themselves simply because you've encountered lackluster players. I've seen some pretty terrible tanks and healers, as well as other DPS, where the only contribution that they made towards the group was death. It's not the job or class that's the problem, it's the player behind it...and why should other people be accounted or suffer for some stranger's mistakes.

[alimdia]

Less about criticism and more about how the person in the group thought they knew the ONLY way to play BLM correctly.

My mindset? Are things dying? Y/N Is everyone alive? Y/N If you answered Yes to both questions, then just have fun. If you answered No to either or both, then maybe look at ALL the players and not just one, and adjust things.

Again it's a group activity, you can't demand 3-7 other people to adjust because you don't want to learn how to play (aka not wanting tips).

I don't condone people being jerks, but regardless of how nicely they would have given advice OP already has a stance where people should ask for his permission before commenting on his gameplay and that's the mindset I don't get, it simply doesn't work with team-based content.

[Nixxe]

I've cleared pieces of Savage content and EX trials, along with casual crap on BLM with a SAM in my static. We may not have bested Guardian or Kefka, but that's more or less a lack of group coordination and people still making dumb mistakes (people still want to eat missiles apparently) and honestly, I'm not going for world first numbers, I'm just having fun with clearing the content while trying my best at my job, and so is the rest of my static. None of us thinks of each other holding anyone back or "preventing others from getting their achievements" as you said. We make mistakes as a group, work together as a group, and find enjoyment as a group.

But, if you want to keep sticking your foot in your mouth, be my guess. The meta comps is not the end all to be all formations to play low-end and high-end content with.

I'm not the toxic one here, but you sure are bleeding a lot of arrogance and ego. You do you if you like judging books by their covers first and foremost.

I don't care what you've done. I never said it couldn't be done. That's just some random thing you started arguing about. What I said is that different classes bring different things to the table and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with being picky and constructing your groups based on acquiring a particular selection of those things. Some people doing so obviously hasn't stopped you from accomplishing what you want, so why you feel that you should be entitled to their time and labor is beyond me. Here's a novel concept: You play how you want; I play how I want; they play how they want; and we all refrain from sticking our noses into other people's business.

[Sigma-Astra]

I don't care what you've done. I never said it couldn't be done. That's just some random thing you started arguing about. What I said is that different classes bring different things to the table and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with being picky and constructing your groups based on acquiring a particular selection of those things. Some people doing so obviously hasn't stopped you from accomplishing what you want, so why you feel that you should be entitled to their time and labor is beyond me. Here's a novel concept: You play how you want; I play how I want; they play how they want; and we all refrain from sticking our noses into other people's business.

You insinuated that it was the developer's fault that people ostracize each other in content over the meta compositions that world first usually tries to enforce while everyone else tries to copy and follow suit afterwards. That's all on what you said, not me. And shortly after I had said that such kinds of logic still made it wrong to do so in my eyes, you immediately jumped to an ad hominem to try and get your point across...calling me entitled because you couldn't attack the argument and instead decided that attacking the person was far easier. If anyone put their nose into someone's business directly right away, it was you dear. I never attacked you first, I attacked the concept of ostracizing players because of the jobs that they play from content, and yet you took it personally for whatever reason afterwards because I found the idea of it, not insinuating you at all, as toxic behavior. Only after you had called me entitled did I follow suit by calling you arrogant afterwards.

Maybe not throw stones first, if you're going to start complaining that I'm defending myself from your baseless slander in the first place? I mean, there's a novel idea...if you didn't care, then maybe you shouldn't have been so abrasive in the first place. Did I ever state that I play with people in Savage not from my static? No, I did not. Point me in the direction where I ever said directly that I should be entitled towards random Savage players for their time and labor, find it, and you may have a case. The burden of proof lies on you, not me.

A novel concept would be to not get offended when the other person you've personally attacked with baseless insults decides to defend themselves from utter bs. You're not looking to debate, you're just looking for me to say that you're right and I'm sorry, but I don't think that you are and you can continue name-calling me all you want. It makes you out to be the lesser person in the end by continuing to do so.