HoH feedback

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'd bet those arguing for no changes haven't really done it. Forget being in a party - even solo is a joke up to 60, but Yoshi-P said the challenging floors start at 30, so you must be making stuff up.
Next EX trial: After every wipe, you need to run a dungeon.

If they add the option to start later and you didn't want to use it, you wouldn't have to. This isn't PVP and there isn't a race. Isn't it a bit much to ask tens of thousands of people to spend hours upon hours doing faceroll content just to do the interesting stuff so...actually, I don't even know why anyone is in favor of it.

Like HyoMin, I have two 100 clears, am working on a third and have wiped at floors 50 (day one, very low aetherpool), floor 76 and 90. So six attempts in content I supposedly "haven't really done."

How is this remotely comparable? The entire purpose of HoH is a gauntlet style system wherein you begin from the bottom up. Allowing players to start from floor 61 eliminates a portion of the risk. Yes, 21-50 are more or less facerolls, but the time commitment inherently makes floors 81+ risky. As I mentioned earlier, wiping to Xande has far less impact if I go back to floor 61. At the point, I've spent maybe an hour and a half tops. Now it's no longer a gauntlet but a mild annoyance.

Most arguments against convenience just boil down to "it's possible to do without this feature so just put up with how things are now". That same argument (appeal to tradition fallacy) can be used against cross realm groups, the duty finder, the raid finder and even the party finder. "If you can't work something out with friends or shout in cities to get a group for a dungeon and can't find the time to walk to the dungeon entrance, you're not even trying." Sounds pretty silly in another context.

Dungeons aren't intended to be gauntlets. Heaven on High is. The only fallacy here is you making a disingenuous comparison between two pieces of content with different design philosophies. What you're essentially saying is, "I want an easier, faster, more convenient route." Okay. Let's say they implement this change except you will not receive an Empyream token and/or the Dodo mount unless you begin from floor 21. Would you still support the change or does your convenience also demand the same rewards too?

It has me perplexed. If someone suggests something that could save people time, I could see people pointing out why the devs wouldn't do it, but here you have people actually arguing against it, and for no good reason, lol.

People have cited plenty of good reasons. You simply refuse to listen.

[Vnolan]

The entire purpose of HoH is a gauntlet style system wherein you begin from the bottom up. Allowing players to start from floor 61 eliminates a portion of the risk.

The purpose of the reset, as well as the stinginess with shards, and no KOs in order to do 31+, is to pad content. You have to grind 21-30 over and over if you want potions for solo runs. You've seen what garbage you can get even from higher tiered sacks.

Allowing people to start from 21 eliminates even more risk. I guess that should be removed. Two RDM, a PLD and a healer takes away from the challenge, so let's also not allow certain party comps. While we're on the topic of having people waste time for no reason, let's bring back DoL favors and permadeath in EX trials.

wiping to Xande has far less impact if I go back to floor 61. At the point, I've spent maybe an hour and a half tops. Now it's no longer a gauntlet but a mild annoyance.

Does Xande gain a buff if you wipe? Do you get debuffed if you wipe? 90 mins wasted is a 'mild annoyance'? If 90 minutes is an annoyance, what about a few hours? You admit right there that's all it does - inconvenience you. It doesn't make the boss hit harder or gain mechanics, it doesn't increase the number of patrols or add floor debuffs. It just wastes your time.

Do you have any decent reason as to why HoH’s challenge floors should only take 2-3 hours? Aside from “because I want it to”?

The challenge floors (61+) already take 2-3 hours. "because I want it to" is the reason for most QoL changes, though if it needs to be said, having to spend a few hours to reach the challenge floors before every attempt is poor game design. You already have to locate sacks, finish the floor set and do battle with rng when appraising. Adding a few hours of fluff just to start that grind each time is overkill.

I haven't gotten to floor 100 yet, because I haven't had 5-6 hours of spare time and the idea of a slapdash party finder group meeting up more than one day seems unlikely and unfun to set up.

With all of two save slots.

[HyoMinPark]

The challenge floors (61+) already take 2-3 hours. "because I want it to" is the reason for most QoL changes, though if it needs to be said, having to spend a few hours to reach the challenge floors before every attempt is poor game design. You already have to locate sacks, finish the floor set and do battle with rng when appraising. Adding a few hours of fluff just to start that grind each time is overkill.

Sorry, those don’t really seem like good enough reasons, in my opinion; they all come off as especially flimsy. Especially since Accursed Hoard/Intuition pomanders can be found on the way to the exit (thereby cutting down on the time searching for them; they aren’t guaranteed to be off in Narnia from the exit all the time), and appraisal doesn’t have to take place until after you have already finished the entire run (so it doesn’t extend the duration of your run; you don’t have to appraise between every set of floors). It basically boils down to “I don’t want to do it, so it should not be a thing”. If all game development choices were up to a player’s preference of “I don’t wanna do it”, we’d have a mess of a game.

[Vnolan]

Sorry, those don’t really seem like good enough reasons, in my opinion; they all come off as especially flimsy.

It's poor game design, just like having people convert hundreds upon hundreds of anemos crystals one by one, or having people convert hundreds of treasure coffers that primarily yield unstackable gear.

Thats the way its designed.

Anemos was designed one way, and within weeks of release, they added the ability to convert multiple crystals at a time and they adjusted loot drops.

I personally dont want it to have it broken into 3-4 tiers. That to me just makes it easier to do, not harder

It would make it harder, because you wouldn't have the magicite and poms stacked up from the previous 40 floors, but it would make it less punishing if you wiped or less time consuming if you don't wipe. You'd still have some people start from 21 not for any additional challenge, but for the added insurance the poms would provide.

IMO, just leave it as it is. I like it that way.

If they allowed a higher start, you could still do it your way.

shall we start from Ultima directly once you reach it once, just like savage? It's already insulting in savage honestly

What prevents you from leaving the instance and reentering each time you wipe on Neo or Godka?

[Melichoir]

Anemos was designed one way, and within weeks of release, they added the ability to convert multiple crystals at a time and they adjusted loot drops.

Thats a QoL feature that has 0 impact on the content from a challange point, unless you consider it a challange to repeatedly click a text box. This is a case of apples and nuclear powered submarines.

It would make it harder, because you wouldn't have the magicite and poms stacked up from the previous 40 floors, but it would make it less punishing if you wiped or less time consuming if you don't wipe. You'd still have some people start from 21 not for any additional challenge, but for the added insurance the poms would provide.

The trouble still stands that if you dont have to worry about going all teh way back to 21, and spending time getting back (time is the punishment factor here), then you can just play it fast and loose if it goes back down to 80. And btw, lets be realistic. If htey add tiers, people will point out the pomander issue, then theyll be in the position to patch it so you get pomanders 'easier' at the higher lvls to counteract that. Or inversely, if the content isnt passable without the pomanders, then having a lvl 80 tier would be a moot point. They would have to implement chest changes at those higher tiers for them to be functional.

If they allowed a higher start, you could still do it your way.

Just let me start at Ultimate modes. I shouldnt have to take the time and clear Savage tiers. They take to much time to do, and getting a static together? God. Thats a challenge.

[Vnolan]

Thats a QoL feature that has 0 impact on the content from a challange point, unless you consider it a challange to repeatedly click a text box.

The relic and the glamour is a grind. Being able to convert multiple crystals at once nerfs that grind.

then you can just play it fast and loose if it goes back down to 80.

You mention 80 again when no one has suggested that far in.

Or inversely, if the content isnt passable without the pomanders, then having a lvl 80 tier would be a moot point. They would have to implement chest changes at those higher tiers for them to be functional.

PoTD and HoH are not balanced at all. Check out the solo scores for each job.

Just let me start at Ultimate modes.

The floors before ultimate are easy, even without a full party?

The examples you have provided are completely unrelated.

Both waste time for no reason.

they aren’t the same thing. That’s a true QoL feature; allowing later starts in HoH or even PotD is not—it’s just something that negates the challenge of the content: the challenge is the gauntlet, and the incentive to not wipe, or otherwise you start all over. It’s not threatening to wipe on Floor 97 if I can start on Floor 61 or 81.

God forbid, we allow something to have some kind of challenge and/or take some kind of time in this game.

I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things.

"The entire point of the relic is a grind. Being able to turn in multiple crystals at once takes away that grind. God forbid we allow something to have some kind of grind or take some kind of time in this game. I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things."

With the crystals, if you wanted to turn them in one by one to augment the challenge you perceive, you could still do it.

That, or they could put those Empyrean Sustain Potions in there.

Says people should stop asking for nerfs to time investment to reach the interesting content because it offends them, then goes on to ask for a similar nerf (would reduce the number of 21-30 runs).

Yup, pretty much this. People can't complete it so they want the fun took away from those of us who can instead of actually improving enough to do it themselves.

How is the fun taken away if the option is still there? If you only find it fun if everyone else has to do it the same way, that's on you.

[KaivaC]

"The entire point of the relic is a grind. Being able to turn in multiple crystals at once takes away that grind. God forbid we allow something to have some kind of grind or take some kind of time in this game. I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things."

With the crystals, if you wanted to turn them in one by one to augment the challenge you perceive, you could still do it.

Are you seriously suggesting that opening several hundred Anemos lootboxes one at a time should've stayed included because it's part of the grind?

...Boi, what?

[HyoMinPark]

Says people should stop asking for nerfs to time investment to reach the interesting content because it offends them, then goes on to ask for a similar nerf (would reduce the number of 21-30 runs).

Care to point out where I said I was “offended”? I said I was annoyed that people demand everything be easier because they don’t want to put in time or effort for things. And I don’t see how adding in Sustaining potions to sacks is a “nerf”; people would still run HoH 21-30 to level alt jobs anyways—they aren’t running those for the potsherds typically.

"The entire point of the relic is a grind. Being able to turn in multiple crystals at once takes away that grind. God forbid we allow something to have some kind of grind or take some kind of time in this game. I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things.”

Thank you for agreeing that things should take more time. I’m glad we finally agree that the challenge floors’ start should remain at Floor 21.

[HyoMinPark]

It's poor game design, just like having people convert hundreds upon hundreds of anemos crystals one by one, or having people convert hundreds of treasure coffers that primarily yield unstackable gear.

How is it poor game design? Again, “because I don’t like it” isn’t a valid reason. The examples you have provided are completely unrelated. As Melichior said, unless you find it challenging to unlock each box individiually, they aren’t the same thing. That’s a true QoL feature; allowing later starts in HoH or even PotD is not—it’s just something that negates the challenge of the content: the challenge is the gauntlet, and the incentive to not wipe, or otherwise you start all over. It’s not threatening to wipe on Floor 97 if I can start on Floor 61 or 81.

God forbid, we allow something to have some kind of challenge and/or take some kind of time in this game.

I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things.

[ThunderGodThor]

God forbid, we allow something to have some kind of challenge and/or take some kind of time in this game.

I’m tired of seeing everyone demand things be easier for them because they don’t want to put forth time or effort for things.

Yup, pretty much this. People can't complete it so they want the fun took away from those of us who can instead of actually improving enough to do it themselves.