HoH feedback

[Reinha]

If they add the option to start later and you didn't want to use it, you wouldn't have to.

Exactly. I see many similarities between this and the no-fly argument (in WoW, but it has spilled here too). If you want to walk and take the long route, go ahead. But I don't see any legitimate reason to be against a faster or more convenient option for others to get where they want to be.

Most arguments against convenience just boil down to "it's possible to do without this feature so just put up with how things are now". That same argument (appeal to tradition fallacy) can be used against cross realm groups, the duty finder, the raid finder and even the party finder. "If you can't work something out with friends or shout in cities to get a group for a dungeon and can't find the time to walk to the dungeon entrance, you're not even trying." Sounds pretty silly in another context.

[SinisterJoints]

But I don't see any legitimate reason to be against a faster or more convenient option for others to get where they want to be.

Sure, I have one for you. THAT'S NOT HOW THE CONTENT WAS DESIGNED, suck it up and either set the time aside or don't do it at all. ITS THAT SIMPLE!!! Stop sitting here begging for something that is already trivial, to be made even more trivial because .. "you don't wanna"

you people wont be happy until this is a mobile game.

Maybe intead of hyperbole lets look at alternatives that still make it a challenge but still help...like 50/50. I ran 1-30 yesterday with an ingame friend (her first time) and she was pissed that its only 30 floors for casuals and that it also only 100 completely.

There are no alternatives. Why should there be? This IS casual content!! Just because you (or your friend) don't want to set the time aside doesn't suddenly change that. You don't even need to do it all in one go I mean jeebus.

[Ayer2015]

Sure, I have one for you. THAT'S NOT HOW THE CONTENT WAS DESIGNED, suck it up and either set the time aside or don't do it at all. ITS THAT SIMPLE!!! Stop sitting here begging for something that is already trivial, to be made even more trivial because .. "you don't wanna"

Your time may be trivial to you, but I value mine. I wouldn't have made a forum thread about this otherwise

[Kazrah]

Your time may be trivial to you, but I value mine. I wouldn't have made a forum thread about this otherwise

Most people value their time, which is why they learn how to adequately manage it by (in this case) breaking down that five or six hour marathon into a few sprints of anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes spread out over a few days.

[Melichoir]

Your time may be trivial to you, but I value mine. I wouldn't have made a forum thread about this otherwise

If you cant dedicte time to it, thats your problem, not the games. The game has difficulty built in a few different ways. The 'Gauntlet' means you gotta not only dedicate time to it, but also while playing it understand more is riding on you to do it right. If you can start at lvl 81 anytime you want after you hit 80, then you can be more risky and less observant in what youre doing. You have the safety net. But if wiping means you gotta start back at 21, that means you gotta be more meaningful and use better judgement to succeed. Cause you dont want ot redo all of that.

Furthemore, if time is such a huge deal to you, get some friends and do a few hours at a time then take a break. There is no rule that says you have to run 21-100 all in one sitting. Thats on you. Again, if you cant dedicate the time, then thats on you, not the game.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'd bet those arguing for no changes haven't really done it. Forget being in a party - even solo is a joke up to 60, but Yoshi-P said the challenging floors start at 30, so you must be making stuff up.
Next EX trial: After every wipe, you need to run a dungeon.

If they add the option to start later and you didn't want to use it, you wouldn't have to. This isn't PVP and there isn't a race. Isn't it a bit much to ask tens of thousands of people to spend hours upon hours doing faceroll content just to do the interesting stuff so...actually, I don't even know why anyone is in favor of it.

Like HyoMin, I have two 100 clears, am working on a third and have wiped at floors 50 (day one, very low aetherpool), floor 76 and 90. So six attempts in content I supposedly "haven't really done."

How is this remotely comparable? The entire purpose of HoH is a gauntlet style system wherein you begin from the bottom up. Allowing players to start from floor 61 eliminates a portion of the risk. Yes, 21-50 are more or less facerolls, but the time commitment inherently makes floors 81+ risky. As I mentioned earlier, wiping to Xande has far less impact if I go back to floor 61. At the point, I've spent maybe an hour and a half tops. Now it's no longer a gauntlet but a mild annoyance.

Most arguments against convenience just boil down to "it's possible to do without this feature so just put up with how things are now". That same argument (appeal to tradition fallacy) can be used against cross realm groups, the duty finder, the raid finder and even the party finder. "If you can't work something out with friends or shout in cities to get a group for a dungeon and can't find the time to walk to the dungeon entrance, you're not even trying." Sounds pretty silly in another context.

Dungeons aren't intended to be gauntlets. Heaven on High is. The only fallacy here is you making a disingenuous comparison between two pieces of content with different design philosophies. What you're essentially saying is, "I want an easier, faster, more convenient route." Okay. Let's say they implement this change except you will not receive an Empyream token and/or the Dodo mount unless you begin from floor 21. Would you still support the change or does your convenience also demand the same rewards too?

It has me perplexed. If someone suggests something that could save people time, I could see people pointing out why the devs wouldn't do it, but here you have people actually arguing against it, and for no good reason, lol.

People have cited plenty of good reasons. You simply refuse to listen.

[Vnolan]

The entire purpose of HoH is a gauntlet style system wherein you begin from the bottom up. Allowing players to start from floor 61 eliminates a portion of the risk.

The purpose of the reset, as well as the stinginess with shards, and no KOs in order to do 31+, is to pad content. You have to grind 21-30 over and over if you want potions for solo runs. You've seen what garbage you can get even from higher tiered sacks.

Allowing people to start from 21 eliminates even more risk. I guess that should be removed. Two RDM, a PLD and a healer takes away from the challenge, so let's also not allow certain party comps. While we're on the topic of having people waste time for no reason, let's bring back DoL favors and permadeath in EX trials.

wiping to Xande has far less impact if I go back to floor 61. At the point, I've spent maybe an hour and a half tops. Now it's no longer a gauntlet but a mild annoyance.

Does Xande gain a buff if you wipe? Do you get debuffed if you wipe? 90 mins wasted is a 'mild annoyance'? If 90 minutes is an annoyance, what about a few hours? You admit right there that's all it does - inconvenience you. It doesn't make the boss hit harder or gain mechanics, it doesn't increase the number of patrols or add floor debuffs. It just wastes your time.

Do you have any decent reason as to why HoH’s challenge floors should only take 2-3 hours? Aside from “because I want it to”?

The challenge floors (61+) already take 2-3 hours. "because I want it to" is the reason for most QoL changes, though if it needs to be said, having to spend a few hours to reach the challenge floors before every attempt is poor game design. You already have to locate sacks, finish the floor set and do battle with rng when appraising. Adding a few hours of fluff just to start that grind each time is overkill.

I haven't gotten to floor 100 yet, because I haven't had 5-6 hours of spare time and the idea of a slapdash party finder group meeting up more than one day seems unlikely and unfun to set up.

With all of two save slots.

[HyoMinPark]

The challenge floors (61+) already take 2-3 hours. "because I want it to" is the reason for most QoL changes, though if it needs to be said, having to spend a few hours to reach the challenge floors before every attempt is poor game design. You already have to locate sacks, finish the floor set and do battle with rng when appraising. Adding a few hours of fluff just to start that grind each time is overkill.

Sorry, those don’t really seem like good enough reasons, in my opinion; they all come off as especially flimsy. Especially since Accursed Hoard/Intuition pomanders can be found on the way to the exit (thereby cutting down on the time searching for them; they aren’t guaranteed to be off in Narnia from the exit all the time), and appraisal doesn’t have to take place until after you have already finished the entire run (so it doesn’t extend the duration of your run; you don’t have to appraise between every set of floors). It basically boils down to “I don’t want to do it, so it should not be a thing”. If all game development choices were up to a player’s preference of “I don’t wanna do it”, we’d have a mess of a game.

[Vnolan]

Sorry, those don’t really seem like good enough reasons, in my opinion; they all come off as especially flimsy.

It's poor game design, just like having people convert hundreds upon hundreds of anemos crystals one by one, or having people convert hundreds of treasure coffers that primarily yield unstackable gear.

Thats the way its designed.

Anemos was designed one way, and within weeks of release, they added the ability to convert multiple crystals at a time and they adjusted loot drops.

I personally dont want it to have it broken into 3-4 tiers. That to me just makes it easier to do, not harder

It would make it harder, because you wouldn't have the magicite and poms stacked up from the previous 40 floors, but it would make it less punishing if you wiped or less time consuming if you don't wipe. You'd still have some people start from 21 not for any additional challenge, but for the added insurance the poms would provide.

IMO, just leave it as it is. I like it that way.

If they allowed a higher start, you could still do it your way.

shall we start from Ultima directly once you reach it once, just like savage? It's already insulting in savage honestly

What prevents you from leaving the instance and reentering each time you wipe on Neo or Godka?

[Melichoir]

Anemos was designed one way, and within weeks of release, they added the ability to convert multiple crystals at a time and they adjusted loot drops.

Thats a QoL feature that has 0 impact on the content from a challange point, unless you consider it a challange to repeatedly click a text box. This is a case of apples and nuclear powered submarines.

It would make it harder, because you wouldn't have the magicite and poms stacked up from the previous 40 floors, but it would make it less punishing if you wiped or less time consuming if you don't wipe. You'd still have some people start from 21 not for any additional challenge, but for the added insurance the poms would provide.

The trouble still stands that if you dont have to worry about going all teh way back to 21, and spending time getting back (time is the punishment factor here), then you can just play it fast and loose if it goes back down to 80. And btw, lets be realistic. If htey add tiers, people will point out the pomander issue, then theyll be in the position to patch it so you get pomanders 'easier' at the higher lvls to counteract that. Or inversely, if the content isnt passable without the pomanders, then having a lvl 80 tier would be a moot point. They would have to implement chest changes at those higher tiers for them to be functional.

If they allowed a higher start, you could still do it your way.

Just let me start at Ultimate modes. I shouldnt have to take the time and clear Savage tiers. They take to much time to do, and getting a static together? God. Thats a challenge.