Sexual harassment

[Miyha]

To be fair a lot of the crowd only gets some of the information, and doesn't really go in depth in finding out what was going on. I mean that's my frustration with the whole thing. In generalized terms, their advice is okay, but it's like "Remember kids, don't talk to strangers" refusing to think outside the box. A teacher is a stranger too, by that regard...but eventually they become something more - your mentor or advisor. It's harder when it's someone you care about or respect, others respect or care about.

Online interaction has become a big part of our lives, we talk to relatives, and other people now where we wouldn't have if technology hasn't improved to make it easier to do so, and I think thus we need to improve our ways of thinking about those interactions. I get how the internet is an escape and some degree of privacy should be given to us for that...and I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I have all the answers either. I just know this isn't some cut and dry or superficial "Jerry's (Springer) final thoughts".

I do agree with this, and it frustrates me too that people don't hold their judgement until they have sufficient information, especially on such a sensitive matter. In this case though, it seems like a great deal of the information was laid out in that article, with links to sources, and a lot of these people giving this half-hearted "advice" just didn't read the damn thing. Some people, however, just flat out dismiss the victim and the situation as "drama" and seem to not only display zero sympathy for the victim, but also find the situation humorous. That's not just ignorance, those are people who need something like that to happen to them. Those are the people who need to be made to feel like the garbage they are. Maybe then they'd be able to approach the situation with some real human empathy.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but as someone who has gone through something very similar (luckily I didn't share personal photos, no matter how much my abuser pressured me), this subject is kind of personal, and these people make me physically ill.

It's not hard at all. I've done it plenty of times. Yes, even when I was younger. You don't send a mentor nudes of yourself.

People like this. I think you missed the entire goddamn point of them drawing that comparison. See:

A teacher is a stranger too, by that regard...but eventually they become something more - your mentor or advisor. It's harder when it's someone you care about or respect, others respect or care about.

Since it seems like I have to explain the basic process of forming human connections with another human: the teacher to mentor comparison was meant to illustrate how people can grow from a stranger to someone more. How a person can earn someone's trust and respect. It's even harder not to give in to someone you trust and care even deeper about and would do absolutely anything to prevent them from abandoning you. They're not talking about sending nudes to a damn mentor. They're talking about appeasing the person you've centered your world around.

Now, you and your small mind are probably thinking, "Lol, well don't make someone the center of your world like that."

Tell that to someone who is struggling with depression, anxiety, self-esteem issues, loneliness, and a whole host of other issues and develop a need to have some kind of anchor to support them. When a person like that is in danger of losing their anchor, they will do anything to keep them around. I know I would have, which is why it's a wonder how I didn't end up caving into the pressure I endured to send explicit photos. See my previous posts for a more elaborate explanation (though it seems you lack reading comprehension skills, so I'm not sure what good that will do).

If you don't know what something like that feels like, good for you. You haven't had to deal with the trauma victims of this kind of a abuse had to endure to demolish their self-esteem to that point. But if you can't say anything outside of "lol it's not that hard"? Get out of this damn discussion. Without basic human sympathy, your opinions on the matter aren't relevant.

Forget about yourselves for a moment... how you'd respond in a situation like this doesn't matter... if you're strong and aware and stable enough to protect yourself good for you... think instead of the weak, damaged, lost, lonely, and those of not sound mind and reason... what kind of community are we if we are so willing to cast aside those who can't help themselves simply because we don't have those same weaknesses?

Based on the flaming pile of garbage I've seen some people spew in this thread, I don't think some people are capable of empathizing with those who have suffered in that way. They're incapable of thinking beyond their narrow views of the world and understanding human emotion and mental health and how it can play into the actions a person takes. It's for this reason I am so adamant about making it known that as a victim myself, I will stand up to their ignorance and that they do not make up the majority of our community. I want to be proof of that.

[polyphonica]

I don't think some people are capable of empathizing with those who have suffered in that way. They're incapable of thinking beyond their narrow views of the world and understanding human emotion and mental health and how it can play into the actions a person takes.

Honestly, for a lot of people, I don't think they treat the interactions they have online as if they were dealing with real people. Besides this thread, you also see it all over social media. It's as if they're talking only to avatars/personas controlled by other people, rather than to the person themselves. Of course, literally in this game, you're controlling an avatar, but unless you're 100% RP all the time, the interactions you have are still with real people, and those people can still have real personalities, struggles, issues, etc. If we were all in the same room, there are tons of social and emotional cues that help most people understand the right and wrong ways to interact with someone who's distressed (or at least help you to understand when it's not the right time or you don't have the right social context/relationship to lecture someone for their mistakes); people who interact in inappropriate ways in public are typically shunned or shamed. But online, it's as though all the social and emotional cues are gone or only exist as a way to manipulate others.

I suspect it'll probably be at least another generation or two before society as a whole develops the social norms to combine anonymity with empathy. Right now, I think too many people are, at some level, still enamored with the idea that anonymity is a sort of freedom from human empathy -- that it means they "no longer need to pretend to care" and can just "tell it as it is" without consequence. Ultimately, though, society is founded on a concept of civility, and the internet itself has become a key part of our society; our children or our children's children will probably have to make up for what our generation lacks.

[Elamys]

They should have been more cautious. There are a lot of terrible people out there. They also aren't girls at that point.

Dude, you can do everything right and still be attacked or whatever. How often do you see it? Someone commits some kind of horrible crime, they interview the people who knew them, and everyone says that they seemed so nice, very normal, etc. You could lock all your doors and someone picks the lock. You could drill someone on their past and keep yourself really distant from them before becoming friends only to have them lash out at you in some way. You could be sitting at a bar, not known for its violence, minding your own business, celebrating your birthday with your friends, when a fight breaks out and a stray bullet kills you (this happened in my city). I don't like this assumption that everyone who is a victim made some colossally stupid mistake because honestly, it's not true, and it's definitely not that simple.

Or, you could be in what you believed to be a truly loving relationship with another person and send them nudes, something that two consenting adults are allowed to do, only to have them threaten to spread them around because you did something they didn't like.

[Joven]

Not sure why I'm posting on here, I guess I can't read 42 pages of circular arguments without having something to say. What is everyone expecting to accomplish here? All I've seen is endless back and forth about what it means to be harassed and how to handle it with no real recourse. There is no one real answer to something like this, it's something that has to be handled case by case.

[Rogatum]

Generally speaking my issue is how people are in agreement that a person should seek professional help, yet it is okay for the victim to go to the court of public opinion to place the accused in a position where they have to prove their innocence rather then guilt. Why is seeking professional help the ideal solution for recovery, and the general public is not suited to handle recovery treatment which is true, yet the general public is capable of handling the judgment of another? A few opinions in this thread support witch hunting a person that has yet to be found guilty, or how incapable the proper authorities are when it comes to handling such issues which means that the only solution is to take matters into your own hand more or less as a community. Or how a person is considered a victim blamer because they place some responsibility on the victim. Overall personally does not make much sense to me, but I also do find it hard to empathize with people that I have no personal relation to so that might play a role in my confusion.

[QT_Melon]

A few opinions in this thread support witch hunting a person that has yet to be found guilty, or how incapable the proper authorities are when it comes to handling such issues which means that the only solution is to take matters into your own hand more or less as a community.

Or how a person is considered a victim blamer because they place some responsibility on the victim. .

Rinse lather repeat. We already explained this to you a enough times. You keep bringing it up like no one saw your posts the first time. Trying to figure out if you honestly feel being repetitive makes the point valid or you're being a sea lion at this point.

Second. To address your first point. Both parties could seek help. Does one need to be committed of a crime for others to know or make a decision to associate with said person? If someone swears at you, do you call the police and then wait till one is found guilty? In the case of harassment people are just figuring out whether or not this is behavior they want to be around. Not if something needs to be taken to the cops. The other issue as to whether or not a crime was actually committed is for the courts.

[Nulstat]

Really reminds me of Inotep, Artemisa and Gedran story in wow.

Always nice to see my hilarious teenage stupidity come back to haunt me 14 or so years later.

That is nothing like this - unless you count the vile, vile messages I fielded for months after the event, and simply blocking people (and hitting block cap within the first ten minutes) didn't stop those messages from happening. Please don't try to lessen someone's struggle just because you don't understand. In the two weeks following my return to Gedran posting that, I had over two thousand exceptionally crude, sexual, and downright threatening whispers to deal with. Some enterprising individuals did not just find out the name of my alts, they found out my e-mail addresses and even my physical home address. They found out my phone number, they found out my school(s). I had kids and teachers at school who knew about the event. I had several communities, forums that I just RP'd on, and chatrooms that knew. That event spread across the internet and even into the real world like wild-fire. There was no getting away from it, and once it hit the real world, absolutely no blocking people.

Sometimes, 'just block and move on' is impossible. Stop telling people to sit down and shut up when they feel uncomfortable, it's archaic behavior that shouldn't have a place in any community worth being a part of. While everyone's threshold for tolerance is different, when people cross into the lines of what sexual harassment (or harassment at all), they should be held accountable if the victim chooses to outcry.

If you don't feel harassed, that's great! I, personally, have a pretty high tolerance (especially after the aforementioned event) and it takes a lot to make me uncomfortable, especially given my hobbies. That doesn't mean that someone else who is harassed by definition has to be okay with it.

[Rogatum]

Rinse lather repeat. We already explained this to you a enough times. You keep bringing it up like no one saw your posts the first time. Trying to figure out if you honestly feel being repetitive makes the point valid or you're being a sea lion at this point.

Second. To address your first point. Both parties could seek help. Does one need to be committed of a crime for others to know or make a decision to associate with said person? If someone swears at you, do you call the police and then wait till one is found guilty? In the case of harassment people are just figuring out whether or not this is behavior they want to be around. Not if something needs to be taken to the cops. The other issue as to whether or not a crime was actually committed is for the courts.

Their is a difference between not associating with someone and actively trying to run their name through the mud, seeking as many outside parties to black list and shame the person for something they may or may not have done. Secondly, the first part was aimed towards more so the person above me since I am simply answering why I started posting in the thread, just forgot to quote the person. I was not aimed towards you. That is my issue and concern, how easily people understand that the generally public does not have the information to capable to handle recovery of abuse and harassment, but they are capable of using used as a means to potentially ruin another persons life before they have been convicted of any crime.

Overall I have no issues with those that handle it behind closed doors, but those that bring the information to the public seeking community support as this thread has shown if you do not fall in line with what the victim claims to be true then you are considered a victim blamer and part of the problem. Also yes you have explained it many times, but I still do not see how trying to publicly shame a person is the best coarse of action, I do believe certain things should be handled outside of the public eye until everything can be confirmed since just as the general public are not trained to handle treatment, I do feel the general public is also not capable of looking past their emotional bias and look at all the information in an objective matter.

Realistically speaking if a person was to remain friends with someone that was accused of sexual harassment or any form of abuse and reserves judgment until more information and or is proven guilty would the community that has blacklisted or shamed the accused think all that highly of a person that remains friends with the person until all the facts are present? I can tell you from experience they really do not. For the most part you are considered scum for associating with the person. I do understand that in the legal sense a great deal of these issues are extremely hard to prove thus putting those that have to deal with it in a tough spot, but does that make it right to run someone else out based off the words of another? That is what a few people in this thread support and that scares me.

I do find it funny how you refer to me as a sea lion, since I doubt that is a complement, what if I personally could not handled such a comment. While I do not understand your opinion or even agree with it, does not make it any less valid.

Always nice to see my hilarious teenage stupidity come back to haunt me 14 or so years later.

That is nothing like this - unless you count the vile, vile messages I fielded for months after the event, and simply blocking people (and hitting block cap within the first ten minutes) didn't stop those messages from happening. Please don't try to lessen someone's struggle just because you don't understand. In the two weeks following my return to Gedran posting that, I had over two thousand exceptionally crude, sexual, and downright threatening whispers to deal with. Some enterprising individuals did not just find out the name of my alts, they found out my e-mail addresses and even my physical home address. They found out my phone number, they found out my school(s). I had kids and teachers at school who knew about the event. I had several communities, forums that I just RP'd on, and chatrooms that knew. That event spread across the internet and even into the real world like wild-fire. There was no getting away from it, and once it hit the real world, absolutely no blocking people.

Sometimes, 'just block and move on' is impossible. Stop telling people to sit down and shut up when they feel uncomfortable, it's archaic behavior that shouldn't have a place in any community worth being a part of. While everyone's threshold for tolerance is different, when people cross into the lines of what sexual harassment (or harassment at all), they should be held accountable if the victim chooses to outcry.

If you don't feel harassed, that's great! I, personally, have a pretty high tolerance (especially after the aforementioned event) and it takes a lot to make me uncomfortable, especially given my hobbies. That doesn't mean that someone else who is harassed by definition has to be okay with it.

Not going to lie I did get many laughs out of the story when I saw it featured in video. For what it is worth it does suck people kept bothering over something no one else was meant to see.

[Alleo]

Generally speaking my issue is how people are in agreement that a person should seek professional help, yet it is okay for the victim to go to the court of public opinion to place the accused in a position where they have to prove their innocence rather then guilt. .

Maybe to warn other people so that nobody else will get hurt by this person anymore? If he is so innocent why not prove it? The online magazine talked to him too and yet he did not feel the need to prove his innocence eventhough he said that he could. Why? If I am truly innocent and somehow over a dozen of other people tell lies about me, I would do my best to prove them as guilty. Yet somehow he posted a screenshot later that blacked out the sentences that the other woman posted and again later he posted "evidence" on some kind of blog (which kinda makes it look like he wrote that post himself) that only showed something while the person was still under his influence. (I mean I am not saying that every victim always behaved like an angel) Also he went against their wishes to remain hidden and called some of them with their names. Did some victims behave badly too? Yes probably, but for someone that sees himself as innocent he surely does not behave that way. Also why should people even believe his screenshots, if they can be changed that much too? Who is to say that any of his sources are not just written by him? Isnt it just strange that he took down his social media, gave the magazine away and said that he would step down, dont post any evidence when it was still fresh...and days later suddenly there is "evidence" that are either blacked out screenshots or computer written messages and he took the magazine back and deleted a few tweets about this..

I am not going to post about your other points because I gave enough examples why its better that victims in such cases have professional help.

[Rogatum]

Maybe to warn other people so that nobody else will get hurt by this person anymore? If he is so innocent why not prove it? The online magazine talked to him too and yet he did not feel the need to prove his innocence eventhough he said that he could. Why? If I am truly innocent and somehow over a dozen of other people tell lies about me, I would do my best to prove them as guilty. Yet somehow he posted a screenshot later that blacked out the sentences that the other woman posted and again later he posted "evidence" on some kind of blog (which kinda makes it look like he wrote that post himself) that only showed something while the person was still under his influence. (I mean I am not saying that every victim always behaved like an angel) Also he went against their wishes to remain hidden and called some of them with their names. Did some victims behave badly too? Yes probably, but for someone that sees himself as innocent he surely does not behave that way. Also why should people even believe his screenshots, if they can be changed that much too? Who is to say that any of his sources are not just written by him? Isnt it just strange that he took down his social media, gave the magazine away and said that he would step down, dont post any evidence when it was still fresh...and days later suddenly there is "evidence" that are either blacked out screenshots or computer written messages and he took the magazine back and deleted a few tweets about this..

I am not going to post about your other points because I gave enough examples why its better that victims in such cases have professional help.

I do agree they should seek professional help, never denied that. My issue with a lot of these cases the so called evidence does leave a lot of unanswered questions yet people look at you like you are crazy if you reserve making passing judgment until more information is shown. No where did I state that they should believe the accused over the accuser, I think both sides should be taken with a grain of salt something official comes from it. Just as you do not feel that the public is equipped to offer treatment (which I do agree with) I do not think the public is equipped to understand the situation and pass judgement based solely off accusations.

In regard to this case, do I think his behavior strange? Yes I do, but to a degree also understandable since I am not sure if the person in question sought legal counsel and what advice said counsel gave him. At the moment all we have is conjecture, I just personally think it is strange to come up with a conclusion based off conjecture.

Either way beyond that it does seem unfair to refer to people as scum because they place some blame of the victim, or when your default reaction is how do we know which side is telling the truth. It is as if a line has been drawn and if do not pick a the "right" side from the start you in a rough spot. It should not be a matter of burning the bridge as you cross it, sure minds can be changed, but often the damage is already done. One thing that we can objectively see though are the actions of victim, so depending on what they did yes I would place some blame on them depending on what was done or not done. That is the person I am, I believe we are responsible for our own actions. As others have mentioned I also do stand by what we learn from our mistakes is often the only take away one gets from such ordeals. As an outside party with no professional experience only thing I can do for the victim is treat them the way I feel I would like to be treated if I found myself in that situation.

Which often gets turned into a huge mess because in that situation my actions are held to a certain standard, yet the same standard is not held for those that are accused. That is the reason why I brought up the professional help when it comes to treatment, yet that seems to put on the back burner when it comes to the accusations themselves. At that point it seems everyone becomes an expert. Hope what I am trying to say makes sense.