DPS Stance vs Tank Stance Including Healer DPS

[Reynhart]

It'd be decision making points throughout the encounter than tended towards safety and mitigation rather than DPS.

But this would come back full circle. If the safety approach end with lower raidDPS, then it's a moot option.
The stance themselves are not really the issue there.

[KaldeaSahaline]

But this would come back full circle. If the safety approach end with lower raidDPS, then it's a moot option.
The stance themselves are not really the issue there.

Speaking personally - My issue with stances has always been about mechanics, not the underlying concept of a tanks responsibilities (mitigating damage). They simply aren't fun. They're prohibitive and binary. I created a solution that makes them more engaging and dynamic IMO. It's not fun to be in Shield Oath or Sword Oath. It's even less fun to switch between them. That's why I think a design where they don't exist but their functions are handled via additional decision points is a better approach.

In order to actually fix the issue you're referring to (that turtling isn't viable aka damage > all) encounters would need to be designed on some other formula for victory. Because the game declares victory on enemy hp = 0, damage will always be the most desired function. I suppose you could design some fights here and there where merely surviving is more important than killing, but that's more so an encounter gimmick, rather than a core systems approach IMO.

Please understand one thing; for me the only thing that matters is fun. If stances were fun, I'd be fine with them. If turtling was fun, I'd be down with it.

[Voidedge_Ragna]

As long as the tank pays attention dps stance is fine ... if you look at your healer when you die from eating that 60k tankbuster w/o buffs then you went to far.

Even in the newest primal healing is not a problem, regen and tetra *insert other classes heal skills* enables you to care very little about cures on global.

Rule of thumb a good tank can stay in dps stance. A bad one will die using it and not see his fault.

On a side note in a lot of cases healer stress is a thing, you dont need to push those 1000 more dps if your healer is close to a heart attack and droping his own by 1000 thats not a gain ... Its just annoying

[Reynhart]

They simply aren't fun.

I'd say they don't really have to be. They're just mathematic adjustment to your damage taken/dealt. Gameplay don't have to be related to the stances.

In order to actually fix the issue you're referring to (that turtling isn't viable aka damage > all) encounters would need to be designed on some other formula for victory.

Some gimmick encounters could be, but it's not necessary. Since what matters is raid damage, one "easy" solution is that what you lose as damage can be compensated by the other party members. For healers, by giving more room to DPS, or DPS risking ripping hate and thus having to hold back if the tank don't build enough enmity in DPS stance.

[Wyndam]

Threads like this need to come with a disclaimer that if the group is wiping and healers are struggling to keep up, then yes, tank stance is okay. In fact it might even be a good idea or preferable. I've seen a few too many Duty Finder tanks insist on being MT and not touch tank stance through about 3-4 wipes.

[whiskeybravo]

Since what matters is raid damage, one "easy" solution is that what you lose as damage can be compensated by the other party members. For healers, by giving more room to DPS, or DPS risking ripping hate and thus having to hold back if the tank don't build enough enmity in DPS stance.

Gotta say I disagree with this. In a single player game something like that would make sense. Could you imagine a pug of 8 people who've never played together trying to figure out who is better at what particular mini-role and how every one should be playing as a cohesive unit? Cluster F waiting to happen lol

I agree with the general sentiment that tank stances are rather shallow. And while I think I could get used to some of those changes (for example baking tank stance effects in to the combos).. I think the dynamic being suggested by Reynhart is.. Too dynamic.. considering the vast majority of casual players. Would definitely need to have some sort of test encounters specifically for 8-man static teams to try out that kind of combat system instead of forcing it on to the game's playerbase at large.

[Reynhart]

In a single player game something like that would make sense.

In a single player game, no one would care how optimal your party setup is.

Could you imagine a pug of 8 people who've never played together trying to figure out who is better at what particular mini-role and how every one should be playing as a cohesive unit?

Keep in mind we're talking about optimal setup for challenging content. In dungeons, normal trials, and even several extreme trials, no one will care if you don't drop your stance to attain the best DPS available. And in Savage, you don't run with "8 people who've never played together trying to figure out who is better at what particular mini-role", so it's not that big of a deal.

[whiskeybravo]

And in Savage, you don't run with "8 people who've never played together trying to figure out who is better at what particular mini-role", so it's not that big of a deal.

There are certainly people that can't maintain a steady schedule and have to pug for weekly clears instead of joining a static.

[Reynhart]

There are certainly people that can't maintain a steady schedule and have to pug for weekly clears instead of joining a static.

Having Savage content requiring a good understanding of your job and swift adaptation to the party is still not something that bugs me.
And if you can't...well, you just won't be optimal... But since "optimal" has nothing to do with being able to clear the content, it's still not a big deal.

[whiskeybravo]

Then what's the difference? We have a ton of sub-optimal players now and there'd probably be more if you make the system that convoluted. I mean, people can barely read the tooltips on their abilities or PF descriptions as it is lol

And what of groups that are already at the top of their game? I guess it would give them something new to optimize.. But, and I can only really speak personally, if I am a top healer I'm not exactly going to be thrilled that I now won't be because my tank is a top tank, I'll have to sacrifice my dps to keep him alive. Or even the reverse, now instead of being a top tank I have to turtle up so my top healer can continue to be as such. Either that or you start break up groups unnecessarily. What is your suggestion for people who would prefer to play as it is now? Deal with it? IDK, I just see a lot more negative consequences.