DPS Stance vs Tank Stance Including Healer DPS

[Kabooa]

If you want engaging tank stances you cant just make shit hit so hard you have to use it. Engaging tank stances require incentives to both have it on and off and force interesting choices. That is what we have now, just the incentives for keeping it on are not as strong as reasons to take it off (enmity is derp easy for one). Forcing stances isn't enhanced fun gameplay.

We don't have engaging tank stances, because they're just number shifts.

[shao32]

If tank stance DOESNT affect damage in anyway then it becomes a boring toggle with no interaction

the problem tank stances are already that, a boring toggle for use it only on pulls, even you can pull without it if you have a ninja who know how to do they job, the penalty himself dont offer nothing more that a punishment that lead us to the current tanking meta, we can discuss how boring can be turn tank stances free of penaltys and keep it on when we are MT but it will be no more boring that tank stances we never touch in combat, is basically the other extreme of tank stances usability right now.
my personal biggest concern about tank stances is they dont let us have a straight way to how to tank, i mean by logic as a tank you want to use you tank stance, but the current status lead you to the other way, to almost never use it and create a gap betwen more expert tanks vs rookie or average ones, its anti intuitive, i mostly preffer tank stances without damage penalty, at least it dont hurt the esence of tanking, or better say the feeling of being tanky and i will have to turn it on and off more in combat by the tank swaps much more that now.

[Reynhart]

As long as the stance exists and the stance changes tank damage output in anyway, we will end up in this either/or scenario.

The thing is, the only adjustment you need to make is how much damage tanks take in and out of tank stance, until the overall gain/loss to healer's DPS will even out. So you just have to do it step by step.

The oft suggested make bosses hit so damn hard you need tank stance or you die is just the other side of the same boring coin.

I think healers do decent DPS even with tanks in DPS stance that you could increase healing requirement without completely crossing this line.

tank stances should give access to skills that let do the same damage as your dps stance. though it requires you to actually tank.

For that to work, tanking properly should require more skill than now. An idea I posted long ago to give benefit to the stance is having a debuff tied to enmity. Basically, the concept is that the monster would be so focused on you that it has a higher chance ok taking critical or direct hits from other party members. And the chance would increase the wider the gap between your enmity and that of the others. But for that, tank rotation should be a little more complicated so that building enmity would not simply be "spamming your enmity combo".

[Izsha]

The thing is, the only adjustment you need to make is how much damage tanks take in and out of tank stance, until the overall gain/loss to healer's DPS will even out. So you just have to do it step by step.

For that to work, tanking properly should require more skill than now. An idea I posted long ago to give benefit to the stance is having a debuff tied to enmity. Basically, the concept is that the monster would be so focused on you that it has a higher chance ok taking critical or direct hits from other party members. And the chance would increase the wider the gap between your enmity and that of the others. But for that, tank rotation should be a little more complicated so that building enmity would not simply be "spamming your enmity combo".

You can step by step it all day, but in the end, there will always be a numerically 'optimal' way to play. Someone will do more damage, even if it is as minor as "DPS stance with an astro cuz they do poor dps and buff the party, but tank stance with a sch who does more personal damage and doesn't buff the tank" which will still setup a meta composition and way to play. As long as tank stance affects damage in any way, it will get number crunched and analyzed until the optimal way to play is teased out. That's just how large communities play games and always has. The only difference is that in modern day this process happens REALLY fast because people can collaborate so quickly now. Within a few days people will run all the numbers and figure out what the bestest damage strat is.

I think healers do decent DPS even with tanks in DPS stance that you could increase healing requirement without completely crossing this line.

For healers to get a meaningful reduction in healing incoming damage would need to go WAAAAY up. Healers don't just heal the MT. THey heal preys, raid damage, OT with adds, etc. There (currently) isn't very much healing going to the MT. The incoming damage on a tank becoming high enough to really put a dent into a healers workload needs to be VERY high as healers are really overqualified for their jobs right now. And that would have some unintended consequences both on "herp derp stance or die" and making life harder for lower tiered players.

Personally, if you want to focus on tank stance, then it needs to be around enmity. Then you have an area to engage with that doesn't make tanking absurdly difficult (by hitting so hard) for lower skilled players further alienating the rarest jobs in roulettes. Enmity management still allows for the ride the line engaging play where you are always trying to squeak by with the minimum to do maximum damage. But as soon as they ninja and later shirk that got thrown out the window. Voke is already an obscenely powerful enmity tool. The combination makes it completely irrelevant for coordinated groups.

But I have to ask, why is using tank stance for pulls and adds a bad thing? People don't get mad that you only use shield lob for pulls and adds. Why are we annoyed that another ability shared by all 3 tanks is also only used in niche situations? If you start viewing stances just like every other ability we have, it begs the question, why the obsession with using more tank stance? No one is posting about how shield lob needs to be buffed to make it part of your rotation, so why are we doing it for a defensive toggle? What do we gain from using more passive skills like stances instead of active ones? Who cares what stance we use if we can do our jobs anymore than no one would cry if there was a more effective way to pull that didn't use shield lob and you took the skill off your hotbar.

[Reynhart]

Someone will do more damage, even if it is as minor as "DPS stance with an astro cuz they do poor dps and buff the party, but tank stance with a sch who does more personal damage and doesn't buff the tank" which will still setup a meta composition and way to play.

If the healers are balanced enough, what healer you have in your party will not change depending on your stance, cause the healing requirement will be the same.

As long as tank stance affects damage in any way, it will get number crunched and analyzed until the optimal way to play is teased out.

And if the numbers even out when pairing tank+healers DPS, people won't stop complaining when tank use their stance.

And that would have some unintended consequences both on "herp derp stance or die" and making life harder for lower tiered players.

Why does everybody thinks that it's either "You can avoid the tank stance 100% of the time and be healed easily" or "Tank stance or OS" ? There's a middle ground.

Then you have an area to engage with that doesn't make tanking absurdly difficult (by hitting so hard) for lower skilled players further alienating the rarest jobs in roulettes.

Just a reminder. Tank stance vs DPS stance doesn't matter in roulettes. Make tanking absurdly difficult in absurdly difficult content is...logical.

[Starkbeaumont]

tank stances should give access to skills that let do the same damage as your dps stance. though it requires you to actually tank. let's say after you mitigate a certain amount of damage you can use 1 (or more) special skill(s) that closes the gap to the dps stance.
if you are not tanking you won't have that benefit and dps stance is to be favoured.

if that works with SE's philosophy that every class should be easily accessible, i don't know.

[whiskeybravo]

Seems like the only tank that's really hurt by that kind of "tank stance" change is Warrior (intentional? lol). Being stuck in Defiance means we probably won't get to use Inner Release for damage, however PLD/DRK still get all their DPS abilities (some of which are even augmented by tank stance). Yea there's a possibility of swapping to deliverance for IR windows but that would depend a bit on mechanics happening in a given fight. (ie is it a phase where we can drop defense and/or tank swap)

To echo Izsha, tanking & healing should not be made so difficult that it detracts players from an already low population. Tank stance is "meaningful enough" when necessary and beyond that we are just hearty melee DPS - I don't necessarily see a problem with this design. I like being able to focus on mechanics and keep the group on track without having to worry so much about the minutia of my rotation or enmity mini-games with the healers/dps.

Could also look at it like: Tanks are basically melee DPS with defensive CDs for absorbing damage - but Healers aren't necessarily caster DPS with healing spells (SCH is kind of an interesting case, though).

[Tex_Mex]

Seems like the only tank that's really hurt by that kind of "tank stance" change is Warrior (intentional? lol). Being stuck in Defiance means we probably won't get to use Inner Release for damage, however PLD/DRK still get all their DPS abilities (some of which are even augmented by tank stance). Yea there's a possibility of swapping to deliverance for IR windows but that would depend a bit on mechanics happening in a given fight. (ie is it a phase where we can drop defense and/or tank swap)

Note that DRK actually gets hurt pretty badly by this too because their best damage cooldown (Blood Weapon) cannot be used while in Grit stance.

[whiskeybravo]

Note that DRK actually gets hurt pretty badly by this too because their best damage cooldown (Blood Weapon) cannot be used while in Grit stance.

Thanks for pointing that out, I forgot entirely BP and BW are locked behind grit. It is a pretty significant damage buff for DRK.

Make tanking absurdly difficult in absurdly difficult content is...logical.

Difficulty is subjective, though. And the thing about tanking is, the harder you make it on the tank the harder it will be on the healers because we are intrinsically tied together for survival. The take no damage/deal no damage style is not really all that fun. I know from prog runs in Defiance, it's boring as hell and there's certainly nothing challenging about it, and plenty of others have expounded on that experience from other MMOs too. Having to switch to tank stance because damage intake is too high without it is not difficult, much less absurdly difficult, especially for the tank. Press button = live.

Short of a complete combat system rework that would introduce more elements like you've described, what we have now works fine. There's no real reason to change it, just various opinions from people on how they would find it more engaging. My own subjective opinion is that it's much more thrilling to know I'm practically on the brink of death when playing out of tank stance; one miss timed heal, one crit auto away from certain death. That's "savage" content. IMO Healers don't do as much damage because they're not damage dealing classes, they're healers. Pretty plain and simple. Tanks have nearly 100% uptime on enemies, multiple melee combos and cooldowns for damage, tools to deal with threat and incoming damage - what exactly is so wrong with tanks being a qausi-damage dealing class? We are already right here in the enemies face. FITE ME BRO

[Reynhart]

The take no damage/deal no damage style is not really all that fun.

The core of the problem. Not all tank think that way.
Having the strategic options to go full tank stance and let healers have far more room to DPS, or going full DPS stance while healer are more focused on keeping us alive would please both types of tank and healer players, instead of forcing everyone into a single meta.

I'm practically on the brink of death when playing out of tank stance; one miss timed heal, one crit auto away from certain death

Problem is, that situation is mostly on the healer's shoulders, not yours. So you're thrilled at putting pressure on someone else.