DPS Stance vs Tank Stance Including Healer DPS

[Naryoril]

There are many topics that discuss the issue of tank stance vs dps stance in terms of enmity against the party's DPS or for survival. But the healer side is always only viewed from the healing aspect (is the healer able to keep the tank alive), not from the DPS aspect. I couldn't find a post that took this into consideration.

What i mean is: if the tank is in DPS stance, the healer will have to heal more, and thus the healer has less time to DPS. So the healer's DPS loss must be factored in as well when talking about the DPS gain when tanks don't use tank stance.

Has there ever been an analysis or at least a discussion of this aspect and if so could someone please point me there?

[Hugowulf]

Are you including defense cool downs in your theory about this?

[whiteblade89]

Tbh, this would have been a discussion you'd see a lot in the days of Cleric Stance (the actual CS, not the role skill we have now), but is probably not talked about much anymore simply because healer DPS has been simplified in SB. I think Hugo up there is on the right track when asking about CD's because the amount of healing the healer is going to be doing is going to be based more off of the tanks actual skill level and knowing what they're doing while out of tank stance rather than based on them simply being out of tank stance.

[shao32]

the problem with tank stances is the 20% mitigation they offer dont change nothing, its just a small cushion and just make us have a bit of more HP at the end of a TB, for healers is not a problem at all bcs they heals are so damm powerful that having 5k more of hp dosent matter at the end, the masive mitigation tools we have plus mitigation utilitys from some dps and the huge shields healers have you have no risk of die and they spend the same exact amount of heals on top you again.

in the end tank stances are just a agro buff used only on pulls due they mitigation is meaningless compared to the dps loss outside of masive pulls.

[Kabooa]

Healers don't really have the kit to be doing the damage lost by the tanks in full time tank stance.

Tank stance is such a small modifier for what you lose, as well as having no real impact on gameplay.

[Saeno]

Healers as of 4.21 barely heal tanks anymore at all in higher levels of play. We are healed either with oGCDs or regens, hard cast heals are getting more and more rare. Tanks also typically beat out healers in DPS, so if one of the two need to lose a GCD it's usually the healer. Tank stance also doesn't mitigate enough damage for a healer to gain considerable amounts of extra DPS, if any at all.

[Starkbeaumont]

conclusion:

healers are too strong
gaining enmity too easy
no meaningful mechanics tied to tank stance

= tank stance in single target fights almost useless

at least in dungeons it's good for those big pulls

[Naryoril]

so you are saying it doesn't matter at all in terms of time spent on healing if a tank takes 20% less damage or not?

[JohnnyDevo]

there's two factors that makes this negligable.

first, tank stance essentially trades the tank taking 20% more damage in exchange for dealing 20% less damage. Even if this translated to the healer doing 20% less damage (which it doesn't), a tank does more damage than a healer in the first place.

Second, Most of the healing done to the tank is via ogcd abilities (tetra, essential, lustrate, benison, lady, etc) regens, or incidental aoe healing. A gcd being used on cure II is uncommon. See this randomly selected example where the warrior who pulled exited tank stance at the very beginning of the fight, and the paladin has no recorded stance casts in the fight, meaning he started in sword oath. The number of benefic/benefic II that the astro casted was four. And god kefka is notably a healing intensive fight.



To put some math behind it, I'll still use this same example. The astro used a total of 40 gcds on healing spells, 129 gcds on damage spells, and did 2429 dps. The warrior did 4586 dps.

First, we'll take what the warrior gained. When only counting the flat percentage, and not counting the penalty to the rotation which would inflate the amount of dps lost, 20% of the listed damage is 917.2

Now, we're going to assume that this costed the healer 20% more healing gcds. This is not accurate because many of them were aoe heal spells, but this is for the sake of argument. Before the 20% increase, 40 would be roughly 33, a difference of 7. 7 extra dps gcds puts 129 at 136, a 5.42% increase. 5.42% of 2429 is 132.

tl;dr: A low estimated gain of 917.2 dps on the tank costs the healer a high estimated amount of 132 dps. It's not even close.

[Elixirboy]

Dead horse: prepare for yet another beating