Samurai and Red Mage

[Bernkastelx]

that's probably why they kept buffing MCH.

Uh no the reason mch got buffed was because it was literally dealing way less dmg than its counterpart brd during stormbloods release. It took about 6 months before mch got back to being on par/slightly doing more than brd. From someone who plays both brd/mch I can tell you right now brd requires more attention people just get scared of mch cause the wildfire combos look daunting smashing all your ocd in 10 secs. Also getting the full combo can be affected due to high latency.

[Shurrikhan]

Now that the SAM buffs have been released, it seems as good a time as any to ask again:

What (more) does/did SAM actually need? And what of RDM?

[Wayfinder3]

In Truth, Samurai and black mage to an extent are a victim of diversity. The game needed to have jobs do different things and thus these 2 are stuck in a situation where they're always going to be on the outside. If we changed the meta by nerfing utility based jobs, then the meta would most likely include these 2, but then 2 other jobs would have to take their place. To that end, BLM and SAM aren't going to meta and players need to accept that. RDM is a bit different as it's main utility is too limited in scope. giving it something that will increase it's value post progression will put the job in contention with SMN considering both rdm and smn are the closest thing to homogenization in the game, as they have all of the same utilities with vercure being the only difference. tl;dr, SAM and BLM are about as good as they're going to get, RDM needs more to stand on it's on apart from SMN. MORE damage and More Offensive/Defensive utilities are possible options here.

A simple comparions
BRD has lower damage but higher utility Ceiling that makes it better than MCH
the reverse of this is
SMN Does more damage but arguably less utility than RDM.
as you can see, they're both really just the same thing in reverse

[Remedi]

mh outside of raise spam I would say that SMN has more utility than RDM tbh

[Shurrikhan]

In Truth, Samurai and black mage to an extent are a victim of diversity. The game needed to have jobs do different things and thus these 2 are stuck in a situation where they're always going to be on the outside. If we changed the meta by nerfing utility based jobs, then the meta would most likely include these 2, but then 2 other jobs would have to take their place.

While fundamentally true, this has always been a question of margin. If one disregards any and all margin of tolerance, job choice entirely is also an illusion, not just as a composition, but in one's ability to have multiple jobs in the DPS role: if/once the LB is no longer necessary, your only DPS option would be the one with the highest rDPS.

Were a margin of 1-3% enough to marginalize jobs, the only thing that would permit job diversity would be Refresh, while the meta stays locked fixedly to doubleRanged-DRG-NIN-WAR-OtherTank-SCH-AST. (Any MP regen buff large enough to forgo Refresh would mean the end of Bard/MCH, unless they truly are the lead rDPS contributor.) And yet, we don't see just one composition in speedruns. That compositional choice is dominant, but far from a solitary choice. In a current continuous uptime fight (e.g. 06S), only 3 out of the top 10 speedruns use double-ranged, and none of them make it to the top 5.

While indirect vs. direct composition cannot allow for multiple balance points, it can at least be balanced over an 8-man fight, essentially allowing the choice between being the "carry" or the one who brings out the best of the "carries", despite contributing equal rDPS (and generally requiring equal skill) in either case. Is it balanced to that extent right now? Not quite. BLM comes close, while SAM and RDM have a ways to go. But it is possible to balance them as well, at least to the extent that Dragoon, Ninja, Bard, Monk, and Summoner are permissible.

[xxvaynxx]

Now that the SAM buffs have been released, it seems as good a time as any to ask again:

What (more) does/did SAM actually need? And what of RDM?

Samurai needed about 6% more dps to be useful...we only got 2% >.>

[Lastelli]

Samurai needed about 6% more dps to be useful...we only got 2% >.>

I'm not sure. Right now SAM probably has the highest single target dps in the game, as fflogs statistics seem to suggest. Just look at o2s and o4s data. Of course, encounters with some form of add phase will see smn and blm on top.
A 6% buff would make it totally op. I honestly think they did a very good job with the last few tweaks. Now SAM has virtually no problem in the aggro management department, thanks to the buff to diversion and merciful eyes, and has a very solid dps. It probably won't be meta, but I think it's in a very good spot. Also, I'm very glad they gave mnk and sam more aggro tools. One of the reasons why NIN was so op is shadewalker after all. Now they just need to fix disembowel and whm aggro and we will probably start seeing more varied party compositions among speedrunners.

[Wayfinder3]

But it is possible to balance them as well, at least to the extent that Dragoon, Ninja, Bard, Monk, and Summoner are permissible.

I have to correct you there, SMN is the only job that has a chance at the meta, MNK is not meta except for 1 fight, where as smn is better than mnk in the other 3. Also wow yes, anything could be meta if you tweak the numbers high enough. At a fundamental level, jobs that offer more should be the best because they offer more, the problem is that they gave too much utility to Bard and Dragoon is required for bard and thus it spirals from their. Also Ninja is hanging on by a thread is easily the most balanced meta job. they have pitiful personal dps and trick attack is the only thing keeping them viable. Enmity tools are nice but ninja is a fair amount behind the other 3 melee. This job doesn't need to be touched or adjusted anymore

[Remedi]

Isn't triple melee the better way for 05s and 06s speedkills? of my note the only reason you don't go triple melee in O7s and O8s is because you need 2 ranged to make it work

[xxvaynxx]

I'm not sure. Right now SAM probably has the highest single target dps in the game, as fflogs statistics seem to suggest. Just look at o2s and o4s data. Of course, encounters with some form of add phase will see smn and blm on top.
A 6% buff would make it totally op. I honestly think they did a very good job with the last few tweaks. Now SAM has virtually no problem in the aggro management department, thanks to the buff to diversion and merciful eyes, and has a very solid dps. It probably won't be meta, but I think it's in a very good spot. Also, I'm very glad they gave mnk and sam more aggro tools. One of the reasons why NIN was so op is shadewalker after all. Now they just need to fix disembowel and whm aggro and we will probably start seeing more varied party compositions among speedrunners.

You can't look at delta fights to see if samurai is doing fine, unless you meant os6 and os8? Those fights have no adds O.o


Also samurai still isn't in a good spot, maybe with pugs its the same as its ever been but the fact MNK can still keep up with its dps and provide raid utility...
On to the whole samurai is top single target, they may take the lead but you gotta see how much? and guess what...its not a lot. No where near enough to take them over a mnk.

I'm gonna assume you meant os6. Now not sure what percentile you were looking at but lets look at 95% which is doable without padding. Samurai is 6'860 and Monk is 6'825....now...you really think that's enough dps to take samurai over a monk? No. Its not.
Monk is THAT close to samurai in dps AND it provides raid utility.

Nobody in their right mind is gonna say "you know what...I think I want a samurai over a ninja"
Samurai gives nothing to the raid a Mnk can't give and more.
If a samurai dies, they're useless.
If mnk dies, they at least give something to the raid, if a ninja or drg dies, they give something.

I think what some people that don't main samurai are failing to see if we have to compete with two highly desirable jobs. Dragoon which is basically replaceable if you have a bard or mch, and Ninja who can actually be swapped out for a Monk because they bring a lot of dps.

Samurai has nothing people want but what? 20 more dps over a mnk in perfect uptime?
So again, we needed about 6% more dps to be useful and we gotten 2% which is jack crap.

Samurai players still need to be exellect to perfect to be worth taking and to some people, thats still not enough.