Samurai and Red Mage

[Shurrikhan]

In Truth, Samurai and black mage to an extent are a victim of diversity. The game needed to have jobs do different things and thus these 2 are stuck in a situation where they're always going to be on the outside. If we changed the meta by nerfing utility based jobs, then the meta would most likely include these 2, but then 2 other jobs would have to take their place.

While fundamentally true, this has always been a question of margin. If one disregards any and all margin of tolerance, job choice entirely is also an illusion, not just as a composition, but in one's ability to have multiple jobs in the DPS role: if/once the LB is no longer necessary, your only DPS option would be the one with the highest rDPS.

Were a margin of 1-3% enough to marginalize jobs, the only thing that would permit job diversity would be Refresh, while the meta stays locked fixedly to doubleRanged-DRG-NIN-WAR-OtherTank-SCH-AST. (Any MP regen buff large enough to forgo Refresh would mean the end of Bard/MCH, unless they truly are the lead rDPS contributor.) And yet, we don't see just one composition in speedruns. That compositional choice is dominant, but far from a solitary choice. In a current continuous uptime fight (e.g. 06S), only 3 out of the top 10 speedruns use double-ranged, and none of them make it to the top 5.

While indirect vs. direct composition cannot allow for multiple balance points, it can at least be balanced over an 8-man fight, essentially allowing the choice between being the "carry" or the one who brings out the best of the "carries", despite contributing equal rDPS (and generally requiring equal skill) in either case. Is it balanced to that extent right now? Not quite. BLM comes close, while SAM and RDM have a ways to go. But it is possible to balance them as well, at least to the extent that Dragoon, Ninja, Bard, Monk, and Summoner are permissible.

[Wayfinder3]

But it is possible to balance them as well, at least to the extent that Dragoon, Ninja, Bard, Monk, and Summoner are permissible.

I have to correct you there, SMN is the only job that has a chance at the meta, MNK is not meta except for 1 fight, where as smn is better than mnk in the other 3. Also wow yes, anything could be meta if you tweak the numbers high enough. At a fundamental level, jobs that offer more should be the best because they offer more, the problem is that they gave too much utility to Bard and Dragoon is required for bard and thus it spirals from their. Also Ninja is hanging on by a thread is easily the most balanced meta job. they have pitiful personal dps and trick attack is the only thing keeping them viable. Enmity tools are nice but ninja is a fair amount behind the other 3 melee. This job doesn't need to be touched or adjusted anymore

[Shurrikhan]

But it is possible to balance them as well, at least to the extent that Dragoon, Ninja, Bard, Monk, and Summoner are permissible.

I have to correct you there, SMN is the only job that has a chance at the meta, MNK is not meta except for 1 fight, where as smn is better than mnk in the other 3.

To clarify from the quote to which you are responding:
"At least": To an extent equal or greater than that of set n. "And": Concerning or applying a condition in common among all elements of the mentioned set.

I.e. to what common extent are the listed jobs permissible? I want at least that extent of viability.

Until the latest buffs, and likely still thereafter, Samurai certainly had not meet that extent, nor had or does Red Mage. If Samurai and Red Mage could each be a top contender on even a single fight, and a highly viable contender outside of perfectly optimized speedruns for the others, as the worst per fight among Dragoon, Ninja, Bard, Monk, and Summoner remains regardless of those fight-specific failings, that would be a drastic improvement. And while I don't think it that's the upper limit by any means (hence the "at least"), especially as mobility and functionality increases, that would be a goal worthy of due adjustments to Samurai and Red Mage. Why call job balance an inherently lost cause when the current balance of Bard (buffed), Dragoon (greatly buffed), and Ninja (indirectly nerfed through the power creep of others' enmity tools) all stand as proof that the relative positions of jobs are susceptible to even very small changes.

Also wow yes, anything could be meta if you tweak the numbers high enough.

Right. That's called balancing. There is are only two key balancing factors: job rDPS and total compositional rDPS. Typal skills like Disembowel aside, the latter is simply the sum of the prior. So how could the optimal composition, or the number of compositions within standard per-attempt deviation from each other, not be adjusted by "tweaking the numbers"? You're acting like there's some inherent advantage to indirect contribution and multiplicative stacking that doesn't boil down, clearly and simply, to rDPS. There's is none. It's a numbers game, and any balancing will therefore be by "tweaking the numbers", even if that will rarely create a solution that would work across multiple encounters if left merely to potency adjustments (in case that's what you mean, despite the focus here being on practical rDPS...).

At a fundamental level, jobs that offer more should be the best because they offer more, the problem is that they gave too much utility to Bard and Dragoon is required for bard and thus it spirals from their.

Could you detail what you mean by "offer more"? Generally, I would also argue the opposite: Ranged is required for Dragoon.

Also Ninja is hanging on by a thread is easily the most balanced meta job. they have pitiful personal dps and trick attack is the only thing keeping them viable. Enmity tools are nice but ninja is a fair amount behind the other 3 melee. This job doesn't need to be touched or adjusted anymore

I agree. But that's just it. Ninja wasn't adjusted. Enmity combos and Diversion were, essentially tossing out much of the rDPS value, especially in terms of visible by-event breakpoints, of its enmity skills except upon add phases that spawned outside of viable delayed Diversion windows. All is susceptible to external factors, and much of Ninja's initial dominance had a great deal to do with Bard burst enmity during progression (before popping Refresh mid-opener for an extended Foes). And that's not even touching on the massive issue the lack of Lucid Dreaming left for non-casters. Those blaring red flags in Role Action distribution and the like aren't job balance issues per se, but they've nonetheless greatly impacted compositional viability.

[Wayfinder3]

Jobs Such as RDM and Bard should be highly valuable to groups because of their vast utility, however bard does too much damage alongside it's utilities, RDM doesn't have enough damage to sustain it's utilities.

The fact that bard is the best receiver of alot of this games damage buffs, is a problem. BLM and SAM should ideally always be the best, brd burst should be weak as should it's dps since it's overwhelming amount of utility is already strong enough to warrant a spot in any group. This job is overtuned while rdm, one of the mediocre users of the same damage buffs, has nowhere near the same amount of raw utility and damage. SE put a large amount of this jobs value into a raise.

Yes you could tweak the numbers to make any job "meta" however what job isn't meta, is going to end up here crying for the same thing, Wanting your job to be meta isn't balancing the game, trying to remove unhealthy synergies is far a bar better alternative and is generally the only way we'll move forward where the meta won't be heavily dominated by Bard and dragoon. Nerf Bard's dps or remove disembowel. the latter would only cause mch to compete in a losing battle against bard.