Samurai and Red Mage

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I meant find an 80th percentile group and run it through the rDPS adjuster, I'm not really sure how to do that, I don't use fflogs much. But it doesn't matter in the end.


The biggest problem in the community, is that people want to see equal numbers on all jobs. Doesn't matter if they have utility or not. Remember on release when SAM was going to be super OP?

Now, to make SAM/BLM viable, they would have to do several thousand more pDPS than the other jobs. People would riot. rDPS only matters to people who think that way. most people in the game only care about their own DPS, and how other jobs boost that. That's why utility jobs are coveted, because they help everyone's numbers get bigger.

The only way to make it work would be say, top BLM/SAM's parsing 8-9k if not more, while the others are doing about 6. Not gonna happen, as we saw when they just listed potencies for SAM. While it would "balance" the jobs for DPS, it certainly would hurt peoples feelings having pDPS numbers with that big a discrepancy, which is when the complaining would start.

[Claire_Pendragon]

We all agree enough "utility" makes up for pDPS with rDPS, but the argument now is if BLM is given enough pDPS to make up for it, to which its arguably close, to the point that almost no group would turn down a BLM.
So honestly, imo, they did good with BLM, but increasing SAMs DPS is actually as much an rDPS loss as it is a pDPS increase, with tanks needing to use more threat to keep up with its pDPS increase.
Back at the release of the current savage, our WAR did 4k DPS, with a PLD doing 3k DPS, voke shirking the WAR. The SAM was doing 5.2k (wasnt fully geared yet) and the WAR always lost hate to him at some point when a tank buster went out. Be it early or later. The SAM was using diversion the moment it was up, so the issue lies in that SAM currently just cant do much more DPS w/o a NIN to help with threat. SAM needs a threat dump, or another tank needs a way to lower PT members threat (Personally i say give it to DRK)

a SAM cant be doing 7k DPS w/o tanking. even with voke/shirk combos, and diversion on CD. (need a NIN as a requirement, only hurting the problem more)

[Shurrikhan]

We all agree enough "utility" makes up for pDPS with rDPS, but the argument now is if BLM is given enough pDPS to make up for it, to which its arguably close, to the point that almost no group would turn down a BLM.
So honestly, imo, they did good with BLM, but increasing SAMs DPS is actually as much an rDPS loss as it is a pDPS increase, with tanks needing to use more threat to keep up with its pDPS increase.
Back at the release of the current savage, our WAR did 4k DPS, with a PLD doing 3k DPS, voke shirking the WAR. The SAM was doing 5.2k (wasnt fully geared yet) and the WAR always lost hate to him at some point when a tank buster went out. Be it early or later. The SAM was using diversion the moment it was up, so the issue lies in that SAM currently just cant do much more DPS w/o a NIN to help with threat. SAM needs a threat dump, or another tank needs a way to lower PT members threat (Personally i say give it to DRK)

a SAM cant be doing 7k DPS w/o tanking. even with voke/shirk combos, and diversion on CD. (need a NIN as a requirement, only hurting the problem more)

This is indeed a core Monk/Samurai issue at the moment, as they alone lack a second enmity tool, be it the purges of Elusive or Lucid or the (effectively) 200% enmity reduction of Shadewalker. The question is whether, if MCH, SAM, and RDM were brought up to comparable levels and MCH, if NIN -- having no more or less rDPS than the others and lacking Verraise, Refresh, Palisade, and Tactician -- would still really have a spot well available (not guaranteed, but merely available) to it.

A Ranged doesn't quite require a Dragoon. Thus I would hope that a Monk or Samurai would not need a Ninja to be played to an acceptable potential. However, if, say, each had DPS-sacrificing tools that could be rDPS equal in the long run, which NIN could remove from necessity and therefore granting them the rDPS gap as if free, that seems like an interesting mechanical match-up.

For example, let's say Purification was buffed.
Purification - 1-minute cooldown. Restores 20% of HP and TP while reducing a significant amount of enmity.

This actual amount would be equal to "3000 raw potency" (non-buffable by mitigation tools), in exchange for dealing 250 buffable potency (essentially up to 440 potency). Assuming that a Monk's time or potency gaps, say, 50% more useful or significant than a tank's, this would still eventually amount to a rDPS increase.

But that also means that over a given fight, a Ninja could afford the Monk 390n to 440n more potency.

There's nothing quite so obviously applicable for Samurai at the moment, but imagine something to similar effect for it. Or, alternatively, play upon that selfish DPS aspect as its enmity generation. Cause Yaten to distribute a portion of Samurai's enmity against the target based all other percentile contributors. If the (former) MT holds 40% of the remainder of all enmity against the target, then he gets 40% of Samurai's 20% as distributed by Yaten. A Ninja would further pronounce those benefits, but they'd still be sufficient without him.

And the Monk brings Mantra and Brotherhood. Certainly not a raid supporter, but that's more than a black mage, and to be honest, it's not even that stacked for the Monk. A healthier amount of AoE cards went out here, and though they got fed some single cards, it isn't nearly as dumb as it is over in the Black mage.

Honestly, it's even looking like the only single card they got were Spears and potentially a balance or two.

So the Monk, a DPS class bringing both unique attack and defense boosts, with less catering to it, is not only keeping up with the Black Mage, but one that was heavily fed single cards.

Right. Which is why I, even though maining Monk/Samurai (well, solely Monk at this point, as its damage is higher even for me and with Brotherhood atop that), am under the impression that certain Monk builds (and therefore the class's potential as a whole) may be unintendedly (overly) powerful, and have suggested the removal of the Brotherhood damage buff to Monk itself, though in exchange for broader applicability across compositions of Chakra generation. I just still need to work out the potential gains in TFC casts by removing its cooldown vs. the 5% on all oGCD skills including the (fewer) TFC casts currently possible. Heck, if I use the above Purification idea, I wouldn't really even need to do that, so long as I reduce Purification to a similar CD. TP would wholly stop being a thing for Monk, but that was practically the case anyways.

[Dralonis]

i still personally think slashing/piercing/blunt should just be taken out of the game like element resistance. would help against the whole meta thing slightly because it really doesn't add anything besides people picking and choosing for synergy in that way. Get rid of that, and they will have to buff some classes in 5.0.

[Shurrikhan]

i still personally think slashing/piercing/blunt should just be taken out of the game like element resistance. would help against the whole meta thing slightly because it really doesn't add anything besides people picking and choosing for synergy in that way. Get rid of that, and they will have to buff some classes in 5.0.

I wouldn't be surprised if only the potential redundancies (e.g. Slashing, and Piercing only if there are equally plentiful other sources and users) are left, going into 5.0 or 6.0. But, I'd wager that one could find a way to balance around it. The issue is that at least one readily available alternative to the given damage advantage (as per Piercing onto a Ranged) also has to give damage, since only damage will be universally useful; all else is a capped utility -- their equivalence to actual throughput depends on very specific interactions or on the power of one's enemies, which will not scale with gear, invaluable for particular benchmarks afforded them, but not at all as soon as that benchmark has been met.

It'd be like being able to take 6% Piercing as applicable to Ranged, but only if at cost to the 5% that the Ranged can give to casters, specifically, which was in turn afforded by something else.

[Shiroe]

in most normal comps, blm are ok dps-wise, .. but ofc still too low compared to most dps and their dps raid buffs..

while in most standard comps sam is still just as good as blm (sam will eat the drg dragon sight or profit from mnks brotherhood... or embolden)

still, blm and sam need a (slight) buff.., smn and mnk are both OP, especially mnk atm

my opionions:

give blm a slight magic vun buff on target of 3-5%


increase sams slashing by +3(-5)

increase embolden by a tick, but make it magic vun too (there are less magic vun buffs)

[PatronasCharm]

For Red Mage, I believe boosting the potency for it's Verspells by 10 would perhaps boost its DPS a bit further.

Jolt II >> Impact (Have it automatically change)

Remove Acceleration and have it as a trait? Perhaps initial Trait = 10% increase, the following be an additional 2%?

Remove Tether!

From the removal of the buttons (Tether /Impact / Acceleration) add Verwater / Verblizzard as AoE rotation with Scatter [Enhanced Scatter Triggers Verblizzard / Verwater]

Emboldment > Increase duration, decrease the potency, and leave it as a percentage instead.

Add an AoE Refresh move for party members / Add Enfire (Increases Direct Hit for all party members) Enstone (Increases defense for party members within range)

Enfire consumes 60 Black Meter / Enstone consumes 60 White meter...

This is my dream, sadly, it's outrageous... but I enjoy being a dreamer lol

[Adventica6]

Still begging for buffs eh, what happens when you yell into a forest when you are alone ? that's what this is.

Sam could use a little nudge, rdm is fine being 13 dps behind nin.

Begging for buffs is what lead to sams current position, they buffed the other classes instead and now you rot while being excluded..

[Shurrikhan]

Still begging for buffs eh, what happens when you yell into a forest when you are alone ? that's what this is.

Sam could use a little nudge, rdm is fine being 13 dps behind nin.

Begging for buffs is what lead to sams current position, they buffed the other classes instead and now you rot while being excluded..

The bulk of those buffs were generated by basic and necessary functionality fixes that were condemning classes' viability to crippled mush based on a single ill-time death. This is scarcely a "haha, serves you right for playing and carrying about (the toolkit integrity of) something other than your main ( -- Now go despair in the isolation caused by your conscience! -- )" moment...

And what is your source for this "13 dps behind NIN"? Also, even were that the case, it would not be remotely fine, given how much more rDPS NIN is contributing at present.

[Adventica6]

And what is your source for this "13 dps behind NIN"? Also, even were that the case, it would not be remotely fine, given how much more rDPS NIN is contributing at present.

Do you have access to google or any form of parsing utility ? I don't get paid enough to spoon feed data.

Sure nin provides more raid damage but that's all it does, rdm, especially in open world content is unstoppable, yes I am a smn main and I mess around with my rdm who shares my high crit/dhit gear, and in dungeons I literally eat mechanics because I can just heal myself,, can nin do that? no they can't.

Now with eureka coming out and some people want to solo, do u think nin is going to do well face tanking high elemental leveled mobs compared to the solo god rdm ? no they won't.

Not every job in the game needs "raids dps utility" I'd rather never die and collect my loot...

This whole "nin is mai god cuz he buff moi" bs needs to stop, it's a boring class with 1 useful ability in raiding which hardly anyone even does...

Now if you want to dispute things further make damn well sure it's worth my time to respond.