Samurai and Red Mage

[Wayfinder3]

Problem is not BRD being very useful to have, but instantly needing a DRG to not make BRD a net loss thus locking 2 of the 4 dps slots already.

But we are going offtopic, nerfing BRD wont make SAM/RDM better

Um Bard being in a group without a dragoon is not a net loss. this would imply that having bard without a dragoon is detrimental to your party which is not true. Having Bard and Dragoon is a net gain. Not sure why people don't understand that bard's utility is jsut as strong with or without a dragoon. Dragoon's utility is the one that requires a bard or machinist to be effective.

[Remedi]

Don't need to nerf BRD to make it less mandatory, especially if you make RDM actually a viable alternative at that point you might create a caster meta, with a triple melee meta and a piercing meta

[Bhearil]

As starters they should modify the buffs that increases X kind of damage and make it global. On the RDM case if you have a Caster Team Embolden only benefits the RDM and the tanks for example, or Monk with Brotherhood, and that forces certain comps

[Hyrist]

I think the issue with Red Mage is a bit easier resolved than indicated. We don't need to be inventing new concepts to be balancing the matter.

If we are preserving the number of skills we have for the class, I do believe automatically converting Jolt II into Impact is necessary for what I am going to suggest.

We need not look far to understand that Red Mage has something in its PvP skills that is bar non far and away different than what it currently has - that being Monomachy. If we can apply this concept to utilities in PVE, we can make a checklist of what we want to cover within that.

Monomachy could potentially be a static single target buff that raises damage for the RDM as serves as a form of damage mitigation for the RDM as has been stated. Obviously in single target sitiuations this would be good, but in multi target its strengths would fall off, which would be balanced. The adjustment of flat gains can be monitored over time and given a tweak up or down as needed by the developers, but its the secondary effect of Monomachy that I feel raiders would be most interested in -

In PvP, Monomachy unlocks debuff potential in additional offGCDs the two that the PvP RDM has being CaC and Displacement. The first provides weight, and the second Bind - both useful debuffs in PvP. But what if we were to expand what skills could proc various effects? For instance, Fletch under the effect of Monomachy could be Physical damage or Piercing damage up. CaC could inflict vulnerability to slashing or perhaps magical damage, Displacement could inflict a Enemy Damage Down Debuff, Etc. To balance this, instead of a damage buff, Monomachy unlocks these various additional effects in Red Mage's offGCDs giving more utility for the class, including more damage for itself when needed. We can add more depth to the job by putting Monomachy on a Cooldown and wearing off on the first additional effect inflicted forcing Red Mage to decide which additional effect to use when within a Raid - and just insure that the potency of these debuffs are balanced out (which could take time).

And it would also solve my huge annoyance of Monomachy existing in PvP with absolutely no reference to its PvE incarnation whatsoever. >.>

[Shurrikhan]

I think the issue with Red Mage is a bit easier resolved than indicated. We don't need to be inventing new concepts to be balancing the matter.

If we are preserving the number of skills we have for the class, I do believe automatically converting Jolt II into Impact is necessary for what I am going to suggest.

We need not look far to understand that Red Mage has something in its PvP skills that is bar non far and away different than what it currently has - that being Monomachy. If we can apply this concept to utilities in PVE, we can make a checklist of what we want to cover within that.

Monomachy could potentially be a static single target buff that raises damage for the RDM as serves as a form of damage mitigation for the RDM as has been stated. Obviously in single target sitiuations this would be good, but in multi target its strengths would fall off, which would be balanced. The adjustment of flat gains can be monitored over time and given a tweak up or down as needed by the developers, but its the secondary effect of Monomachy that I feel raiders would be most interested in -

In PvP, Monomachy unlocks debuff potential in additional offGCDs the two that the PvP RDM has being CaC and Displacement. The first provides weight, and the second Bind - both useful debuffs in PvP. But what if we were to expand what skills could proc various effects? For instance, Fletch under the effect of Monomachy could be Physical damage or Piercing damage up. CaC could inflict vulnerability to slashing or perhaps magical damage, Displacement could inflict a Enemy Damage Down Debuff, Etc. To balance this, instead of a damage buff, Monomachy unlocks these various additional effects in Red Mage's offGCDs giving more utility for the class, including more damage for itself when needed. We can add more depth to the job by putting Monomachy on a Cooldown and wearing off on the first additional effect inflicted forcing Red Mage to decide which additional effect to use when within a Raid - and just insure that the potency of these debuffs are balanced out (which could take time).

And it would also solve my huge annoyance of Monomachy existing in PvP with absolutely no reference to its PvE incarnation whatsoever. >.>

At that point, though, wouldn't one be adding a hotbar action just to include an obligatory ability the like of WoW's Hunter's Mark, whereby you can only do full damage to a single target at a time, and where that target can only be adjusted per 10 seconds? Imagine if you had to repop Enochian (albeit at a 10s CD) every time you wanted to change targets. I can hardly imagine something feeling more bloated in dungeons or the like.

The added mitigation isn't particularly useful for RDM, either, as it's still too small to allow for any new survival benchmarks (as per Manaward), and its effect on healer GCDs required would likely be nonexistant, as they'll still also be healing for all those who lack the 10% added mitigation. Nor is that mitigation really necessary...

Moreover, RDM isn't a whole 10% behind in pDPS. Now, that can be reduced to 5% or so, but then... why even spend an action bar slot on it, as by 5% swapping really does become a negligible loss? The buff would also do nothing about any clunkiness, relative uptime concerns (e.g. during 3-GCDs or more continuous movement, which melee combos cannot be held for without heavy ppm loss), ill-fitting utility, or the like.

I don't mean to say that Manomachy, or some version thereof, isn't a good idea, but to say that to add Manomachy and only Manomachy is a best solution just because it's simple (despite complex issues) seems -- to me, at least -- vastly oversimplifying and reductive.

[Wayfinder3]

Unfortunately RDM will probably see no sort of changes on the tier list despite buffs that it may get (similar to drk) because, someone simply has to be the lowest, RDM raise is definitely powerful enough to allow summoner to over take them. The only reasonable solutions i would see is to just buff them so the gap isn’t as wide. I’d also like a less clunky AoE rotation as RDM already has a lot of buttons in general so spamming more buttons for a really slow paced AoE rotation is not fun. Get rid of scatter and just let enchanted molinuet be used independently of the gauge for now.

[Shurrikhan]

because, someone simply has to be the lowest

While I understand that you aren't stopping on this note, I have to point out: This is a dangerous way of thinking. To say, even in all honestly, that "we'll never get it perfect" does not excuse neglect in trying to approach that goal. Not that you're saying that it would; I'm merely venting at SE here. v.v

And to what degree are you defining "lowest"? In "general"? In a specific fight? In a specific composition on a specific fight? In terms of ease for a specific mechanic of a specific fight, in a specific composition? All but the first are already true of all jobs, and each add practical flavor to the roster.

RDM raise is definitely powerful enough to allow summoner to over take them.

RDM doesn't even quite have the MP to spare to Verraise once per Lucid Dreaming. And deaths are rarely so conveniently timed. Without a second Ranged, and syncing of LD to Refresh, if the fight goes on long enough in continuous uptime, RDM will drain itself of mana through Verraise. SMN, on the other hand, due to its lower average MP costs over rotational phases, sees a smaller relative MP burden from casting Raise, and its loss of all casts over GCD length and longer stretches of mobility in the form of DWT cause it to have virtually no other use for Swiftcast. It is in many ways the superior resurrection-caster. Only a large group of deaths, beyond that of SMN and the two healer's Swiftcasts' ability to recover from, actually offer Verraise real use. And the value of such in progression, especially in fights with strong enrage timers -- whereby the goal is not merely to learn the mechanics, but to learn how to handle them with minimal loss to uptime -- is frequently overstated.

The only reasonable solutions i would see is to just buff them so the gap isn’t as wide. I’d also like a less clunky AoE rotation as RDM already has a lot of buttons in general so spamming more buttons for a really slow paced AoE rotation is not fun.

Agreed. That will always be the goal.

Get rid of scatter and just let enchanted molinuet be used independently of the gauge for now.

That said... Enchanted Moulinet being used independently of the gauge would merely force the RDM to further crowd melee during AoE phases: imagine O5S's add phase with yet another player in melee range during the self-AoEs. It would be equally repetitive, but forced into melee range rather than forced into immobility every other GCD (as per standard dualcasting).

[Shiroe]

Rdm is already very disared in every content other than (speed kill) farm raid PFs.

make Rdm anymore desirable, it will completly push out Blm, that is almost nowhere disarable other than (if lucky) some (speed kill) farm Pfs..

imo Rdm should be doing more damage than a brd without Drg Buff or as near as much as Brd + Drg buff,.. if its much lower than that, than atleast bring Rdm dps up a bit, that I agree on, but overall only a slight buff,...

putting Rdm back in a possible meta spot, with all its advantages might just not be fair (would become "best dps for EVERY content of FFXIV"..bye dps balancing, .. beisdes pushing Blm out again, which is desirable only in 20% of the content)

maybe make embolden buff all dps, not just physical or/ and exttend by a few sec., Pfs love buffs of all kind, just buffing embolden a bit could make Rdm more desirable, .. even if that embolden buff doesn't putt Rdm in speed kill meta spot, itwould make sure 99% of all Pfs probably wont mind a Rdm

EDIT:

lookung at the Ultimate Raid:

Rdm with it's "low" dps is still more desirable than Blm.., even if its mostly prog..., but ony 1% do speedkill runs anyway..

Rdm is fine, .. sure, give a bit more dps, so Rdm dont feel week, without pushing Blm out completely .. but the gap from average Rdm and other averge / most dps istn even that big (since Rdm isnt that hard to master, and is very mobile)

[Dualgunner]

Rdm is already very disared in every content other than (speed kill) farm raid PFs.

make Rdm anymore desirable, it will completly push out Blm, that is almost nowhere disarable other than (if lucky) some (speed kill) farm Pfs..

You're too focused on RDM being anything more than a pile of dirt (like usual) you ignore SMN shining like a glorious beacon of "We're everything that RDM is but better to the point we do even more damage than BLM in some scenarios."

BLM isn't seen as less desirable because of RDM. It's less desirable because of SMN. RDM is less powerful to the nth degree than SMN, it's less mobile than SMN, its bursts don't line up with Trick windows like SMN, and the only thing it has over SMN is an overblown and overhyped spell that in actuality doesn't save raids that much at all.

imo Rdm should be doing more damage than a brd without Drg Buff or as near as much as Brd + Drg buff,.. if its much lower than that, than atleast bring Rdm dps up a bit, that I agree on, but overall only a slight buff,...

Well congrats that's about where it is. Why should it be that low though? It just doesn't bring the necessary tools to be worth that low amount of DPS.

putting Rdm back in a possible meta spot, with all its advantages might just not be fair (would become "best dps for EVERY content of FFXIV"..bye dps balancing, .. beisdes pushing Blm out again, which is desirable only in 20% of the content)

RDM was never in a possible meta spot. It was never even considered. And the caster that broke back into the meta wasn't RDM, so put your RDM hate boner away.

maybe make embolden buff all dps, not just physical or/ and exttend by a few sec., Pfs love buffs of all kind, just buffing embolden a bit could make Rdm more desirable, .. even if that embolden buff doesn't putt Rdm in speed kill meta spot, itwould make sure 99% of all Pfs probably wont mind a Rdm

Nobody's asking for RDM to be in a speed kill meta. We're asking to have an answer to our groups when they say "Roll SMN instead." We're looking for something to say we're not holding back our fucking groups when we play the job we love and surely that's something you understand.

lookung at the Ultimate Raid:

Rdm with it's "low" dps is still more desirable than Blm.., even if its mostly prog..., but ony 1% do speedkill runs anyway..

Only 1% do Ultimate anyway too.

Also what do you mean "low"? Its damage is on par with bard's, with nowhere near the utility. If we're talking about desirability in EX fights, I guess, but pugs are generally dumb anyway, so is that the measure we want to go with?

[Sunako]

Also what do you mean "low"? Its damage is on par with bard's, with nowhere near the utility

But you have to remember bard have that "same" damage only because they have dragoon. If bard can do same dps than rdm that mean rdm is doing 300 dps more than bard. Bard/mch is balanced without disembowel. If you check raid dps calculator even rdm can reach 6.7k + raid dps contribution. If their damage would get boosted 200 - 300 they could be close to meta.