Samurai and Red Mage

[Bhearil]

Functioning Heal and Chain Rez, Viable damage Buff to a best 5/8 members of your party, red mage has powerful utility no matter what you say, it's just limited in scope, it is the best dps for progression however it's a one trick pony. Having powerful but limited utility is NOT the same thing as having poor utility or none at all. red mage was not design around 4 man content, it's utility just translate there better than other jobs. Red mage doesn't have the best mp however lets look at the context. BLM has the best MP because it cannot run out, SMN has better MP control because majority of it's damage comes from ogcd usage where as rdm does more of it's damage on the gcd and even then it's not like the job is starving for it. Im an rdm main i've cleared almost every piece of content and i hardly ever run into serious mp issues.

Having the worst MP doesn't mean it's necessarily bad, someone has to have the worst. 98% is worse than 100% but does that mean 98% is bad?

Comparing RDM to BRD is not the same. RDM is balanced too much because of raise, BRD isn't balanced enough is the sole most broken job in the game. BRD is even more powerful then MCH, by a sizeable margin because of their utility.

If you need to rely on RDM to heal the group is doomed to fail no matter what, same if both healers and more people manage to die at the same time and need to be ressed by a RDM, it has some niche utility when soloing or doing 4 men content but nothing else. You cant say that you need your group to be worthless to have utility. There was another class who happened to suffer the same issue, being super good at easy content while being garbage at harder ones: The 2.0 WAR and everyone knew what he needed love badly despite being able to not need healing at all with his HP gain skills on easy content until scaling showed up and warrior self healing no longer was able to compensate his weakness. Before 2.1 everyone was running double PLD and even on some dungeons keeping a WAR alive was a nightmare (Andapor Keep for example until the power creep arrived)

RDM has 0 mp regen skills, thats right, you depend on slotting Lucid Dream to have extra mp, which makes RDM super weak if he/she dies while Lucid on cd, and even doing it perfectly you will eventually need external help with MP faster than any other magic dps. Also that both healing and ressing have high mp costs. 98% might be better than 100% but on this case is 100% and everyone else is 70-80% at worst on mp management...

BRD is pretty balanced, having the most utility while dealing low damage (MCH has less utility but more damage and it has been buffed recently, so they want to enforce BRD: More utility than damage and MCH: More damage than utility). Its the RDM that sticks like a sore thumb having the lowest damage of all the dps despite having mediocre utility only.

Honestly they could put RDM res on 60 seconds cd and 99.9% of the time you wouldnt notice the difference

High End content was cleared first with DRK despite being on a garbastic spot compared with WAR and PLD because all jobs are designed to be viable on all content. Thing is, why bother with a viable job when you can get any other job and do more with less effort? You only do that if you really love that job and yet you would have to squeeze it much more than any other job to avoid being a burden to your group.

Thats like saying "its viable to make a hole with a small toy showel, despite having a real one near to dig with" We are not speaking of small differences (there will always be better and worse jobs no matter what) but considerable ones...

[silentwindfr]

it's clear that right now brd is overtuned and some jobs need some adjustement.... but do they really care that the question.

the change of the SAM of the 4.3, outside the reduction of hate, are mediocre and barely enough for make the samurai more wanted into group.

and the trouble is mainly because of the defense debuff that make all the meta rigid.

[Bhearil]

BRD and MCH get huge benefits from Dragoon debuff, probably that needs to be fixed before balancing those jobs, to also give more flexibility to 8 man builds instead of instalocking 2 dps slots already.

Right now having a DRG with a BRD/MCH is a no brainer with so much free damage they get from piercing debuff

And anyways both BRD/MCH performance, doesnt affect RDM/SAM since they contest for different dps slots (Damage with some support and pure damage slots respectively). Those two are the only support heavy jobs amongst the dps after all, and they will be always in demand unless they nerf them to hell

[Shiroe]

the reason why sam 4.3 isn't quite as desirable as it should be or as blm, is maybe due too mnk being to OP when played well..

but nerfing mnk would just maybe make it lose its new validity in pfs.., nerf mnk, nin and drg altogether??.. but than just might as well buff sam more (but that might break blm too)

[Remedi]

buff sam and caster iin general, make brd less mandatory to a group

[Shiroe]

buff sam and caster iin general, make brd less mandatory to a group

I agree on that

[Shurrikhan]

buff sam and caster iin general, make brd less mandatory to a group

What kind of buffs are we talking about, though? To things like Mana Shift? To only slightly indirect rDPS contributors like Embolden and Corruption?

[Tracewood]

Maybe the should just give the DPS jobs their own buffs. Or ditch the whole Blunt/Piercing/Slashing mechanic.

It's nice to have synergy, but math gamers will always come up with the most optimal setup and the rest of the playerbase will treat it as gospel.

I feel that SAM is pretty strong if you play it right, it's all about HOW you use Kenki. It needs something else, more speed. Maybe reduction to GCDs and keep the 4.3 buffs.

RDM could use more potency buffs and utility, some DoTs maybe.

[Remedi]

What kind of buffs are we talking about, though? To things like Mana Shift? To only slightly indirect rDPS contributors like Embolden and Corruption?

Mana shift is idd in need of something considering how cumbersome it can be at time, and ye contagion and embolden should be looked at too in my opinion, epsecially the latter in more than just the decay, but also the fact that it's yet another physical buff that on a caster frankly makes no sense, even radiant shield imho is questionable.
Raise utility is nice in prog but loses value imho inspeed kills and if thais used as an excuse to why the class is not given more imho it should just go away.

The problem with casters in the end is that they don't mix well between each other, they have mayor lock during LB(which is limited in utility already because it requires 2+ targets to be effective) and their dmg is shared with healers whose dmg is not the same dmg of tanks as such any magical dmg debuff will not have 2 extra jobs that it covers but let's say just one (if we consider each healer as half dmg of a dps)then we consider that said magical buffs are nearly non existent since you have only contagion and Ifrit is the preferred choice unless you master pet swap (but I don't know if you swap every 1 min, since I don't play SMN much).
When all of this is piled it's no wonder why no1 is speed running with a 2 caster setup or a 3 caster setup even, why would you speed run with 3 jobs that don't really work together when triple melee and piercing meta do have sinergy between each other? Even though BLM not is better, it still bring nothing to the group but is dmg and in a way you can still have the feeling that you could've been more help to the group with another job. Heck SMN is in a better place than BLM because it does more or less the same dmg and it brings some utility to the group.
I admit I don't know how to actually make SAM work in any comp atm, the only way might be pushing DRK+PLD combot o be better than WAR+PLD, while also making NIN less valuable, but generally ye I would rather have other options become more valuable than simply nerfing the existing ones

edit: Though making the 1k limit go away will actually decrease my annoyance by a good 20%

[Bhearil]

Problem is not BRD being very useful to have, but instantly needing a DRG to not make BRD a net loss thus locking 2 of the 4 dps slots already.

But we are going offtopic, nerfing BRD wont make SAM/RDM better