Disembowel: Please Fix this Mess

[HyoMinPark]

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

If I may:

DRG has its own utility in the form of Battle Litany and Dragon Sight, but it is mostly in the meta because of the bonus it can give BRD/MCH through piercing. Disembowel alone earns roughly ~300 rDPS contribution for 1 ranged, ~600 rDPS if you run both. The combination of Disembowel with Litany and Dragon Sight make DRG almost beat out the rDPS contribution larger rBuffs give (e.g., Trick Attack) if you’re running with just one physical ranged; and, if you’re running double physical ranged, DRG’s combined utility craps all over Trick Attack.

While Litany and Dragon Sight are still great buffs, Dragon Sight accounts for ~1% of a total DPS increase on its target, and Litany does not scale as well as Trick Attack does in terms of contribution—mostly because TA is a straight damage increase and has a shorter recast, where as Litany is critical hit rate up (so contribution is reliant on RNG for crits) and is on a fairly long timer. Without the 300~600 rDPS contribution from Disembowel, DRG can easily be subbed out for MNK, since Brotherhood is really good for all physical comps, affects straight-up damage like TA does, and is on a shorter timer (lines up great with WAR’s Inner Release, so they’re happy, and Litany is worthless to a WAR now, because they will never not be in IR when Litany is up, and IR = auto Crit Direct Hits).

So there would have to be something added to DRG to make it competitive with the other melee—either they reduce the cooldown on Litany to allow it more uses in a given fight (and, by extension, more rDPS contribution), or they buff DRG’s personal damage to be a bit more selfish with a hint of utility. As it stands right now, their personal damage is not enough to offset the 300~600 rDPS contribution they would lose if piercing were removed—and they would be losing 5% of their personal damage as well, since all their damage is piercing damage.


As for BRD/MCH, I think they may have to be tweaked slightly. Because BRD, as it stands now, is behind in personal damage compared to the other DPS, but it can at least be offset by the massive amounts of rDPS contribution and utility that they offer—though I would personally like to see at least a tiny tweak, maybe ~2%, so that I don’t feel so weak in terms of personal damage like I do currently without a DRG (no DRG = me sad BRD)...but I can understand why they may not want to do that (even though it does suck). MCH, on the other hand, only has Hypercharge (which is not nearly as good as Trick Attack) and Dismantle (which groups can live without), so they would have to have some sort of buff to compensate because they don’t offer enough rDPS contribution like BRD does to be competitive—BRD has everything MCH can offer, and BRD does it better.

Even now, with piercing in the game, MCH gets subbed out for BLM or SMN. Clunky gameplay aside, it will need some TLC if piercing is actually removed to not make it deader than it already is.

[EllieShadeflare]

If I may:

DRG has its own utility in the form of Battle Litany and Dragon Sight, but it is mostly in the meta because of the bonus it can give BRD/MCH through piercing. Disembowel alone earns roughly ~300 rDPS contribution for 1 ranged, ~600 rDPS if you run both. The combination of Disembowel with Litany and Dragon Sight make DRG almost beat out the rDPS contribution larger rBuffs give (e.g., Trick Attack) if you’re running with just one physical ranged; and, if you’re running double physical ranged, DRG’s combined utility craps all over Trick Attack.

While Litany and Dragon Sight are still great buffs, Dragon Sight accounts for ~1% of a total DPS increase on its target, and Litany does not scale as well as Trick Attack does in terms of contribution—mostly because TA is a straight damage increase and has a shorter recast, where as Litany is critical hit rate up (so contribution is reliant on RNG for crits) and is on a fairly long timer. Without the 300~600 rDPS contribution from Disembowel, DRG can easily be subbed out for MNK, since Brotherhood is really good for all physical comps, affects straight-up damage like TA does, and is on a shorter timer (lines up great with WAR’s Inner Release, so they’re happy, and Litany is worthless to a WAR now, because they will never not be in IR when Litany is up, and IR = auto Crit Direct Hits).

So there would have to be something added to DRG to make it competitive with the other melee—either they reduce the cooldown on Litany to allow it more uses in a given fight (and, by extension, more rDPS contribution), or they buff DRG’s personal damage to be a bit more selfish with a hint of utility. As it stands right now, their personal damage is not enough to offset the 300~600 rDPS contribution they would lose if piercing were removed—and they would be losing 5% of their personal damage as well, since all their damage is piercing damage.


As for BRD/MCH, I think they may have to be tweaked slightly. Because BRD, as it stands now, is behind in personal damage compared to the other DPS, but it can at least be offset by the massive amounts of rDPS contribution and utility that they offer—though I would personally like to see at least a tiny tweak, maybe ~2%, so that I don’t feel so weak in terms of personal damage like I do currently without a DRG (no DRG = me sad BRD)...but I can understand why they may not want to do that (even though it does suck). MCH, on the other hand, only has Hypercharge (which is not nearly as good as Trick Attack) and Dismantle (which groups can live without), so they would have to have some sort of buff to compensate because they don’t offer enough rDPS contribution like BRD does to be competitive—BRD has everything MCH can offer, and BRD does it better.

Even now, with piercing in the game, MCH gets subbed out for BLM or SMN. Clunky gameplay aside, it will need some TLC if piercing is actually removed to not make it deader than it already is.

First off, thank you thank you thank you for a proper response.

I can kinda see where you're going with this, so perhaps either Disembowel should be a wider buff (so affecting more than just Bard and Machinist and themselves) or only affect Dragoon. Or buff Dragon Sight/Litany to make them more impactful.

Secondly, yes, Bard and Machinist ought to have better buffs as a result of them being the "support" classes, and shouldn't feel like they're pathetic when they go without a Dragoon. Fully agree.

That said, Machinist does deserve another look at so it's better in damage than Bard (and maybe even Ninja) to compensate for its relative lack of support.

[Nominous]

If the goal of removing disembowel is to make casters a good option,

It's more about DRG and how easy of a choice it is for the melee slot, and how influential it is on party composition. DRG is kind of the central figure of imbalance in that sense (NIN being a close second). It affects at least 5 different Jobs (MCH+BRD directly, SMN+BLM+RDM indirectly through virtue of competition with piercing phys-ranged). Since DRG takes up it's own slot in the party as well, it's effectively 6 DPS Jobs in the game that are held hostage because of one buff. You could go a step further and say MNK/SAM could be competing with DRG's spot too, but NIN can sort of be held accountable for that just as much as DRG can be.

It's not the most dire of situations- Most PF don't discriminate. It's getting worse though. Early (good player) PF prog (especially 4th tier fights) are starting to more rigorously follow the meta. Even worse when it's speedkill/ patch lull time. We'll have been dealing with this for 2 expansions (about 4 years) now, and it's just incredibly tired at this point.

[HyoMinPark]

First off, thank you thank you thank you for a proper response.

I can kinda see where you're going with this, so perhaps either Disembowel should be a wider buff (so affecting more than just Bard and Machinist and themselves) or only affect Dragoon. Or buff Dragon Sight/Litany to make them more impactful.

You’re very welcome. Anything to give a bit of insight. ^^

If we were going to keep the resistance downs in the game come 5.0, and if Yoshida is insistent on not giving it to BRD/MCH because “too OP”, they should give it to another job. I have seen people in the past suggest SAM or RDM. It would give them a bit more utility, give them viability in optimization teams, offer more job comps, and would make BRD/MCH happy, since they wouldn’t feel unnecessarily gimped in their damage from just not having a DRG around. I’m personally more of a fan of removing it entirely, but either would work. I just dislike having to be dependent on a DRG as it is right now. ^^;;

Buffing Litany and Dragon Sight if Disembowel were removed would feel almost necessary, just because a DRG would then fall behind other jobs in utility, and wouldn’t be able to make it up in personal damage—this is the exact problem RDM and SAM have right now: little to no utility, and not enough personal damage to make it up. Personally, buffing Litany would be more beneficial since it will affect everyone, and Dragon Sight is just one person.
Because I will be fighting people for that buffed tether!!!

Buffing DRG’s remaining utility could help offset that, if the developers were intent on not adjusting their potencies. I think, if the potencies were adjusted, it would probably have to be a bit more than 5%, to give them back what they lost from piercing being removed, and a little bit extra to make up for the fact that they aren’t bringing in an additional 300~600 rDPS with a BRD and/or MCH around.

Secondly, yes, Bard and Machinist ought to have better buffs as a result of them being the "support" classes, and shouldn't feel like they're pathetic when they go without a Dragoon. Fully agree.

It is a very crappy feeling to run with a DRG, and then run without one, and watch your damage drop 5% and know that you cannot do anything about it; I speak from personal experience lol. With all of DRG’s buffs combined, I lose about ~500 DPS total, ~300 of that being Disembowel, which would easily make the difference between purple and orange with some of my current logs. I have goals to get oranges, so it makes me sad that I cannot get them solely because I lack a DRG. I would like to be able to achieve oranges without having to have a DRG there; BRD/MCH cannot achieve orange without one—purples, yes, but oranges, no.

I have no issue buffing my party; I love BRD and I love being a support role. I just wish that I could not have to rely on a 5% resistance down debuff to have decent numbers. I know all the other physical DPS apply their own debuffs, so unless they are just completely mucking up their rotation, they can be more independent, whereas I feel really dependent. I wouldn’t ask for the 5%, but at least ~2%.
Or they could give me back my fire circle, and return potencies to my oGCDs—looking at you, Repelling Shot. Oh, and give me Blunt Arrow back lol.

That said, Machinist does deserve another look at so it's better in damage than Bard (and maybe even Ninja) to compensate for its relative lack of support.

I would be completely behind MCH being the more selfish ranged. BRD’s utility earns it a spot in most comps as it currently stands (rarely are they subbed out for a MCH), and I think MCH needs something more to make it more appealing to a group in lieu of a BRD (this isn’t taking into account perhaps some job redesign—it is the least popular DPS job, and I hear a lot of complaints about the way its rotation is designed, aside from the latency/ping dependency Wildfire has). Potency increases and maybe an adjustment to Wildfire would go a long way—a friend actually suggested to me that Wildfire function like Rapid Fire, in that it lasts for a certain number of GCDs/oGCDs so that you don’t have to worry too much about high ping causing you to lose the final ability for your Wildfire.

I can’t speak on elaborate redesign options for MCH since I don’t play it, but those are a few suggestions.

[Remedi]

It's more about DRG and how easy of a choice it is for the melee slot, and how influential it is on party composition. DRG is kind of the central figure of imbalance in that sense (NIN being a close second). It affects at least 5 different Jobs (MCH+BRD directly, SMN+BLM+RDM indirectly through virtue of competition with piercing phys-ranged). Since DRG takes up it's own slot in the party as well, it's effectively 6 DPS Jobs in the game that are held hostage because of one buff. You could go a step further and say MNK/SAM could be competing with DRG's spot too, but NIN can sort of be held accountable for that just as much as DRG can be.

It's not the most dire of situations- Most PF don't discriminate. It's getting worse though. Early (good player) PF prog (especially 4th tier fights) are starting to more rigorously follow the meta. Even worse when it's speedkill/ patch lull time. We'll have been dealing with this for 2 expansions (about 4 years) now, and it's just incredibly tired at this point.

I'd say that NIN is more problematic than DRG tbh, even if a caster comp was a thing you would still run a NIN.
Frankly my fear is that removal of disembovel would just evolve in removal of trick attack, bortherhood and so on.
Imho the problem is that some jobs make you feel like not pulling your weight in the group and make you doubt that if you went with another job the pull would've been better.
As such they should fix that part either with added utility or direct dmg. Removing something is simply a step towards homogenization, because of triple melee beign much more effective than before I say that disembowel is not as strong as it was. I mean fastest kill on 07s has a SMN thanks to multidotting perhaps, but fight mechanics are an addendum on balance or so I believe.
I Understand that it sucks that 5% of your dmg is locked by having or not a jobn in the party, but I guess anyone could say the same for the absence of a certain buff in a fight if you think about it.

[HyoMinPark]

Frankly my fear is that removal of disembovel would just evolve in removal of trick attack, bortherhood and so on.

This is an unfounded fear, I feel. Trick Attack and Brotherhood are strong, but they are not as skewed as Disembowel’s piercing resistance down is. TA can give ~900 DPS to 7 people...Disembowel gives ~300 to one player—900 divided by 7 is 128.57 per person, which is barely a third of piercing’s contribution to one person. There is no singular buff outside of a crapload of single-target Balances that are that heavily skewed on a single person.

All the resistance down debuffs are redundant as it stands: all physical DPS save for BRD/MCH can apply their own, so they will never not have the damage increase from them unless they are royally mucking up their rotation and just not applying them at all. For tanks, it’s highly unlikely that you will ever be in a scenario where Slashing resistance down is not present in some shape or form (3 jobs can apply it: WAR, SAM, and NIN; two of which are meta, and are popular job choices). Blunt is only used by MNK, and they can apply it. DRG also can apply Piercing so their damage will be unaffected by it unless they just aren’t doing their Chaos Thrust combo (and at that point, there’s even worse problems present there)...but they are also the sole provider for the 3 jobs that utilize piercing. Hence why BRDs and MCHs that care about their damage cling to DRG.

There is a huge difference between a 5% flat damage buff with 100% uptime, and something that is 10% damage increase every 60 seconds, or 5% damage increase every 90 seconds.

I Understand that it sucks that 5% of your DRG is locked by having or not a job in the party, but I guess anyone could say the same for the absence of a certain buff in a fight if you think about it.

No, you really cannot. There is no single raid buff alive outside of a crapton of single-target Balances that offer the same amount of DPS contribution to a single player that piercing does. Sure, a person may lose out on a little bit from the lack of Chain Strategem, or from the lack of Battle Voice, or Trick Attack even...but individually, those values are insignificant compared to the 5% BRD/MCH lose with no DRG.

The RAID loses out from the lack of an important rBuff. But BRD/MCH are the only ones who suffer heavily with no piercing resistance down. The raid loses a bit from the lack of Litany, and one/two people will lose out on the 1% overall Dragon Sight gives, but BRD/MCH lose 5% flat...PLUS the loss of Litany, and if they were the proper target for Dragon Sight, which is dependent on burst. It may not seem like a lot to people who don’t play these jobs in a Savage setting, but it is: as I said prior, my lack of piercing is the difference between a purple parse and an orange one.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'd say that NIN is more problematic than DRG tbh, even if a caster comp was a thing you would still run a NIN.
Frankly my fear is that removal of disembovel would just evolve in removal of trick attack, bortherhood and so on.
Imho the problem is that some jobs make you feel like not pulling your weight in the group and make you doubt that if you went with another job the pull would've been better.
As such they should fix that part either with added utility or direct dmg. Removing something is simply a step towards homogenization, because of triple melee beign much more effective than before I say that disembowel is not as strong as it was. I mean fastest kill on 07s has a SMN thanks to multidotting perhaps, but fight mechanics are an addendum on balance or so I believe.
I Understand that it sucks that 5% of your dmg is locked by having or not a jobn in the party, but I guess anyone could say the same for the absence of a certain buff in a fight if you think about it.

... what?

How can you remotely compare Disembowel and Trick Attack or Brotherhood? The latter two buff the entire raid whereas Disembowel solely benefits two jobs outside DRG itself. Look over this log. 842.5 came from Trick Attack. Split between seven people, that equates to an average of 120 rDPS. Disembowel gave 297.4 to Bard only. Therefore, Piercing equates for nearly three times the damage increase of Trick Attack. No other buff in the game impacts two specific jobs as severely. I raid with a Monk, thus I don't have Trick. While inferior, Brotherhood offsets the loss to a point. Bard and Machinist have literally no alternative to Piercing. They simply lose 300 damage on top of the losses of Battle Litany and Dragon Sight.

To exemplify this better, look at this log which lacks DRG. Everyone has either obtained orange or were meager points away. The Bard? 55% and nearly 600 below the Ninja, who ranked third in overall damage. Their damage is nowhere near the other three DPS all because someone chose Monk and Ninja over Dragoon.

[Remedi]

I serioulsy doubt we won't come to the point where we won't complain about BRD or NIN and AST beign necessary to the meta if we remove disembowel.
I repeat I understand it sucks you lose 5% dmg simply for the lack of dragoon, but wouldn't the raid feel the same for the loss of a BRD a NIN or an AST?
I cited Brotherhood because it has written on it a restriction on which you DON'T want a non weaponskill user in the presence of a MNK, which in a speed run setting is important and since I've seen too many things escalate in a bad way in the game I'm sure that if we start removing parts of jobs WITHOUT fixing the problem at the root, we'll unconsciously go towards homogenization.

I agree that disembowel for the moment is problematic and all, but considering how speed kill metas are atm, I would say that it's the better it has ever been and frankly it shows that depending on the fight the meta will shifit as such they should focsu on how to fix the underdogs first and foremost, to make them less of a terrible pick

[HyoMinPark]

I serioulsy doubt we won't come to the point where we won't complain about BRD or NIN and AST beign necessary to the meta if we remove disembowel.
I repeat I understand it sucks you lose 5% dmg simply for the lack of dragoon, but wouldn't the raid feel the same for the loss of a BRD a NIN or an AST?

The raid members would not lose nearly as much individually for subbing out an AST/NIN/BRD as a BRD/MCH would be for no DRG. I feel like you fail to understand that Disembowel’s piercing resistance down is 100% uptime, not 10 seconds every minute like Trick, or completely RNG like AOE Balance/Spear/Arrow can be.

Sure, with no DRG the raid loses out on Litany...BRD/MCH lose Litany’s contribution AND the damage from piercing; it’s one-fold for the raid, but two-fold for the BRD/MCH.

As Bourne said, you can drop a NIN for a MNK, and Brotherhood helps offset the loss of TA with Brotherhood—they aren’t equal, but it’s better than nothing at all as a replacement...it would be better to bring a MNK as a substitute for NIN and TA than, for example, a SAM. There is no equivalent of that or replacement/substitute for Disembowel for BRD/MCH. They just kiss 5% damage goodbye, and can do nothing about it.

Plus, a MNK’s personal damage on top of Brotherhood would more than offset the loss the raid gains by TA because what Brotherhood doesn’t make up for, their damage will since it’s monstrous. TA, Brotherhood, and Litany are all a revolving door: each one can at least semi-decently compensate for the loss of another. There is no answer for Disembowel. There is no substitute. Like above with my Litany example, let’s take a MNK/NIN comp: the raid loses Litany’s contribution, but they gain Brotherhood (at least the physical jobs do, which will be the majority in this scenario anyways). And yeah, the BRD/MCH loses Litany in favor for Brotherhood...but they lose out on Disembowel: ~300 DPS just gone and Brotherhood cannot make that up—it can offset Litany (to an extent; BRD probably still loses a bit because of how it interacts with crit), but it cannot in any way offset Disembowel. No raid buff can offset the loss of Disembowel for BRD/MCH, and that is the problem with it.

I cited Brotherhood because it has written on it a restriction on which you DON'T want a non weaponskill user in the presence of a MNK, which in a speed run setting is important and since I've seen too many things escalate in a bad way in the game I'm sure that if we start removing parts of jobs WITHOUT fixing the problem at the root, we'll unconsciously go towards homogenization.

The problem for the meta is piercing; not Trick Attack, not Brotherhood, not even Litany; and the removal of piercing would not result in homogenization, I don’t think. If anything, it removes the lock on DRG/BRD/MCH that has been a thing since Creator (not even Disembowel’s nerf from 10% to 5% broke it; only now in 4.2 have BLM/SMN been able to compete with MCH for the second ranged slot, and that’s because their personal damage can offset MCH’s lack of both personal damage and utility). That, in and of itself, opens up the opportunities for more viable job comps that don’t royally screw over a single player for not having a resistance down debuff.

I agree that disembowel for the moment is problematic and all, but considering how speed kill metas are atm, I would say that it's the better it has ever been and frankly it shows that depending on the fight the meta will shifit as such they should focsu on how to fix the underdogs first and foremost, to make them less of a terrible pick

If Disembowel is so much better than before, then why is DRG/BRD/MCH still the preferred physical meta? Why does it still contribute more to a single player than any other raid buff outside of stacked/padded single-target Balances (which severely impact the raid in exchange for stacking it on a single person)? Trick Attack, Brotherhood, Litany, none of those can give ~300 to a single person like Disembowel does for BRD/MCH.

Remember that triple melee is only viable in fights where you won’t have to force a melee off the boss for an extended period of time. I suppose you can make an argument for BLM/SMN being present in top-tier speedkills for each fight, but that’s about it. There is still no chance for jobs like SAM or RDM; and yeah, they need their own adjustments, but piercing’s presence in combat is not helping them in any shape or form; it is only hurting them further on top of their problems with personal damage/utility.

Removing piercing would at least give these “underdogs” a better chance not to be. It would make groups feel less garbage for bringing in a SAM instead of a DRG for their BRD/MCH. It would open up for maybe even triple-ranged comps, because a DRG would not be a necessity for BRD/MCH, and BLM/SMN are monstrous enough in terms of personal DPS to make up for the lack of Litany/Dragon Sight...and, again, you wouldn’t be screwing over your BRD/MCH.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I repeat I understand it sucks you lose 5% dmg simply for the lack of dragoon, but wouldn't the raid feel the same for the loss of a BRD a NIN or an AST?

No because Piercing only buffs Bard and Machinist. Like I said in my preceding response, if you drop Ninja for Monk, you replace Trick Attack with Brotherhood. The latter may be inferior, but it and Monk's significantly higher personal damage help off set the loss. There is literally nothing that off sets Piercing. In my current static of DRG/MNK/RDM/BRD, if I play Ninja, the raid loses Battle Litany while gaining Trick Attack. The Bard loses Piercing and gains absolutely nothing. Look at the logs I linked; specifically the second. That Bard lost nearly 600 DPS yet everyone else parsed 94%+

I agree that disembowel for the moment is problematic and all, but considering how speed kill metas are atm, I would say that it's the better it has ever been and frankly it shows that depending on the fight the meta will shifit as such they should focsu on how to fix the underdogs first and foremost, to make them less of a terrible pick

And you know how to fix that? By removing a debuff which encourages DRG/BRD almost unanimously. Yoshida flat out said they do not take Disembowel into their equation when balancing Bard and Machinist hence why they have struggled to the extent they have.