Disembowel: Please Fix this Mess

[EllieShadeflare]

a

You need to buff DRG if Disembowel is removed, not BRD/MCH.

Bard and Machinist are the classes who lose things if Disembowel is removed, not Dragoon. If anything, the 5% provided by the buff doesn't really need to go back into the Dragoon (since the power of Disembowel is that it boosts you AND the Bard and probably a Machinist if you wanna go full meta), except maybe boosting Heavy Thrust further or something.

Seriously, look on FFLogs. I can almost guarantee you that most of the best damaging Bards and Machinists have a Dragoon providing Disembowel, and the fastest groups have a Dragoon and Bard and/or Machinist for this very reason.

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

Heck, if you're so desperate to have a buff from Disembowel, just make it a universal buff so other classes other than Machinists and Bards benefit. Just not something that encourages a monobuild.

[Kitfox]

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

Here you go.

[EllieShadeflare]

(snide link to previous post in another thread)]

Since you're really not gonna respond to my other points, I may as well be lazy too and post a rebuttal in a lazy and snide format... which happened to be in the next post after yours in that thread.

See, I could maybe understand, say, all enemies having an actual Defense stat that Disembowel then reduces. I could even understand Piercing damage, if damage types are to remain either taking greater advantage of Defense Penetration or taking a greater hit from Defense normally (i.e. Blunt automatically ignores x portion of Defense, Slashing a lesser portion, and Piercing none at all, but has higher base potency to compensate), such that Disembowel has a stronger impact on Piercing damage than on Slashing and Blunt.

But even then you'd run into an imbalance between Full Party and lesser-sized parties, as whatever pDPS remains after making Dragoon rDPS-equitable in an 8-man party would be too little for it to be equitable in, say, a 4-man party. While this may be irrelevant until such a time as difficult content is made for anything other than 8-man content, it's a fundamental issue with all means of indirect damage contribution in this game, as each scales infinitely. A better solution may be to provide a modifier which depletes over actual (e.g. bonus damage) use, greatly tightening scalability (though potentially adding some additional rotational variance).

But having a sole provider of a damage buff, even a "mere" 5% one, hasn't been acceptable since its provider was already required just to avoid duplicate jobs (i.e. pre-Ninja Warrior). Unless Bard or Machinist somehow lose rDPS by lack of some alternative utility (e.g. an additional caster to Mana Shift them, in place of that Piercing buff, if they were actually worthwhile targets for MS) to make up for their pDPS bonus, Dragoon should not be the sole provider of such a large advantage. More even than it binds Bard and Machinist to Dragoon, it bind Dragoon to them, to the point than any other melee (except perhaps, sadly, SAM) would be better taken if no ranged DPS is present.

[Removing Disembowel and compensating Dragoon potencies for its personal bonus damage and rDPS loss] would be the best and easiest approach. They should do this to every weapon type debuff. would be the best and easiest approach. They should do this to every weapon type debuff.

That, however, seems unnecessary. Slashing and Blunt debuffs both manage to make something decently fun out of those debuffs. The only problematic one is truly just Disembowel, both in that it feels unimpactful for the Dragoon itself and has too great of scalability outside himself.

From that same thread, since you were quickly shut down by someone a bit more reasonable than you. Another point, (though I will say we might disagree in whether or not BRD and MCH should be buffed to compensate)

I can explain this pretty easily.

Every job that applies their own Permanent Resistance Down takes that into account when tallying their final damage output. This goes into their 'budget' and includes their defensive options, their party buffing, and any utility they bring.

The issue is we currently have jobs that don't adhere to these rules.

Warrior, Monk, Bard, and Machinist.

Mach and bard are pretty well balanced without Disembowel, and frankly, adding it to them likely means you just get dumped on base power so you end up in the same spot.

And another!

They feel it's too strong to give to rant ged themselves....so they'll continue to let DRG completely monopolize the buff for no actual reason....ok?

They need to let Disembowl go already, it was balanced in 2.0, where you only had two melee to choose from anyway. Things are different now, give ranged their own debuff, or at least give someone else the piercing debuff as well so DRG doesn't monopolize it.

I'd rather not be lazy again. At the risk of sounding rude, I'd rather have something substantial to deal with than something that was already debunked in the same thread.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

If I may:

DRG has its own utility in the form of Battle Litany and Dragon Sight, but it is mostly in the meta because of the bonus it can give BRD/MCH through piercing. Disembowel alone earns roughly ~300 rDPS contribution for 1 ranged, ~600 rDPS if you run both. The combination of Disembowel with Litany and Dragon Sight make DRG almost beat out the rDPS contribution larger rBuffs give (e.g., Trick Attack) if you’re running with just one physical ranged; and, if you’re running double physical ranged, DRG’s combined utility craps all over Trick Attack.

While Litany and Dragon Sight are still great buffs, Dragon Sight accounts for ~1% of a total DPS increase on its target, and Litany does not scale as well as Trick Attack does in terms of contribution—mostly because TA is a straight damage increase and has a shorter recast, where as Litany is critical hit rate up (so contribution is reliant on RNG for crits) and is on a fairly long timer. Without the 300~600 rDPS contribution from Disembowel, DRG can easily be subbed out for MNK, since Brotherhood is really good for all physical comps, affects straight-up damage like TA does, and is on a shorter timer (lines up great with WAR’s Inner Release, so they’re happy, and Litany is worthless to a WAR now, because they will never not be in IR when Litany is up, and IR = auto Crit Direct Hits).

So there would have to be something added to DRG to make it competitive with the other melee—either they reduce the cooldown on Litany to allow it more uses in a given fight (and, by extension, more rDPS contribution), or they buff DRG’s personal damage to be a bit more selfish with a hint of utility. As it stands right now, their personal damage is not enough to offset the 300~600 rDPS contribution they would lose if piercing were removed—and they would be losing 5% of their personal damage as well, since all their damage is piercing damage.


As for BRD/MCH, I think they may have to be tweaked slightly. Because BRD, as it stands now, is behind in personal damage compared to the other DPS, but it can at least be offset by the massive amounts of rDPS contribution and utility that they offer—though I would personally like to see at least a tiny tweak, maybe ~2%, so that I don’t feel so weak in terms of personal damage like I do currently without a DRG (no DRG = me sad BRD)...but I can understand why they may not want to do that (even though it does suck). MCH, on the other hand, only has Hypercharge (which is not nearly as good as Trick Attack) and Dismantle (which groups can live without), so they would have to have some sort of buff to compensate because they don’t offer enough rDPS contribution like BRD does to be competitive—BRD has everything MCH can offer, and BRD does it better.

Even now, with piercing in the game, MCH gets subbed out for BLM or SMN. Clunky gameplay aside, it will need some TLC if piercing is actually removed to not make it deader than it already is.

[EllieShadeflare]

If I may:

DRG has its own utility in the form of Battle Litany and Dragon Sight, but it is mostly in the meta because of the bonus it can give BRD/MCH through piercing. Disembowel alone earns roughly ~300 rDPS contribution for 1 ranged, ~600 rDPS if you run both. The combination of Disembowel with Litany and Dragon Sight make DRG almost beat out the rDPS contribution larger rBuffs give (e.g., Trick Attack) if you’re running with just one physical ranged; and, if you’re running double physical ranged, DRG’s combined utility craps all over Trick Attack.

While Litany and Dragon Sight are still great buffs, Dragon Sight accounts for ~1% of a total DPS increase on its target, and Litany does not scale as well as Trick Attack does in terms of contribution—mostly because TA is a straight damage increase and has a shorter recast, where as Litany is critical hit rate up (so contribution is reliant on RNG for crits) and is on a fairly long timer. Without the 300~600 rDPS contribution from Disembowel, DRG can easily be subbed out for MNK, since Brotherhood is really good for all physical comps, affects straight-up damage like TA does, and is on a shorter timer (lines up great with WAR’s Inner Release, so they’re happy, and Litany is worthless to a WAR now, because they will never not be in IR when Litany is up, and IR = auto Crit Direct Hits).

So there would have to be something added to DRG to make it competitive with the other melee—either they reduce the cooldown on Litany to allow it more uses in a given fight (and, by extension, more rDPS contribution), or they buff DRG’s personal damage to be a bit more selfish with a hint of utility. As it stands right now, their personal damage is not enough to offset the 300~600 rDPS contribution they would lose if piercing were removed—and they would be losing 5% of their personal damage as well, since all their damage is piercing damage.


As for BRD/MCH, I think they may have to be tweaked slightly. Because BRD, as it stands now, is behind in personal damage compared to the other DPS, but it can at least be offset by the massive amounts of rDPS contribution and utility that they offer—though I would personally like to see at least a tiny tweak, maybe ~2%, so that I don’t feel so weak in terms of personal damage like I do currently without a DRG (no DRG = me sad BRD)...but I can understand why they may not want to do that (even though it does suck). MCH, on the other hand, only has Hypercharge (which is not nearly as good as Trick Attack) and Dismantle (which groups can live without), so they would have to have some sort of buff to compensate because they don’t offer enough rDPS contribution like BRD does to be competitive—BRD has everything MCH can offer, and BRD does it better.

Even now, with piercing in the game, MCH gets subbed out for BLM or SMN. Clunky gameplay aside, it will need some TLC if piercing is actually removed to not make it deader than it already is.

First off, thank you thank you thank you for a proper response.

I can kinda see where you're going with this, so perhaps either Disembowel should be a wider buff (so affecting more than just Bard and Machinist and themselves) or only affect Dragoon. Or buff Dragon Sight/Litany to make them more impactful.

Secondly, yes, Bard and Machinist ought to have better buffs as a result of them being the "support" classes, and shouldn't feel like they're pathetic when they go without a Dragoon. Fully agree.

That said, Machinist does deserve another look at so it's better in damage than Bard (and maybe even Ninja) to compensate for its relative lack of support.

[HyoMinPark]

First off, thank you thank you thank you for a proper response.

I can kinda see where you're going with this, so perhaps either Disembowel should be a wider buff (so affecting more than just Bard and Machinist and themselves) or only affect Dragoon. Or buff Dragon Sight/Litany to make them more impactful.

You’re very welcome. Anything to give a bit of insight. ^^

If we were going to keep the resistance downs in the game come 5.0, and if Yoshida is insistent on not giving it to BRD/MCH because “too OP”, they should give it to another job. I have seen people in the past suggest SAM or RDM. It would give them a bit more utility, give them viability in optimization teams, offer more job comps, and would make BRD/MCH happy, since they wouldn’t feel unnecessarily gimped in their damage from just not having a DRG around. I’m personally more of a fan of removing it entirely, but either would work. I just dislike having to be dependent on a DRG as it is right now. ^^;;

Buffing Litany and Dragon Sight if Disembowel were removed would feel almost necessary, just because a DRG would then fall behind other jobs in utility, and wouldn’t be able to make it up in personal damage—this is the exact problem RDM and SAM have right now: little to no utility, and not enough personal damage to make it up. Personally, buffing Litany would be more beneficial since it will affect everyone, and Dragon Sight is just one person.
Because I will be fighting people for that buffed tether!!!

Buffing DRG’s remaining utility could help offset that, if the developers were intent on not adjusting their potencies. I think, if the potencies were adjusted, it would probably have to be a bit more than 5%, to give them back what they lost from piercing being removed, and a little bit extra to make up for the fact that they aren’t bringing in an additional 300~600 rDPS with a BRD and/or MCH around.

Secondly, yes, Bard and Machinist ought to have better buffs as a result of them being the "support" classes, and shouldn't feel like they're pathetic when they go without a Dragoon. Fully agree.

It is a very crappy feeling to run with a DRG, and then run without one, and watch your damage drop 5% and know that you cannot do anything about it; I speak from personal experience lol. With all of DRG’s buffs combined, I lose about ~500 DPS total, ~300 of that being Disembowel, which would easily make the difference between purple and orange with some of my current logs. I have goals to get oranges, so it makes me sad that I cannot get them solely because I lack a DRG. I would like to be able to achieve oranges without having to have a DRG there; BRD/MCH cannot achieve orange without one—purples, yes, but oranges, no.

I have no issue buffing my party; I love BRD and I love being a support role. I just wish that I could not have to rely on a 5% resistance down debuff to have decent numbers. I know all the other physical DPS apply their own debuffs, so unless they are just completely mucking up their rotation, they can be more independent, whereas I feel really dependent. I wouldn’t ask for the 5%, but at least ~2%.
Or they could give me back my fire circle, and return potencies to my oGCDs—looking at you, Repelling Shot. Oh, and give me Blunt Arrow back lol.

That said, Machinist does deserve another look at so it's better in damage than Bard (and maybe even Ninja) to compensate for its relative lack of support.

I would be completely behind MCH being the more selfish ranged. BRD’s utility earns it a spot in most comps as it currently stands (rarely are they subbed out for a MCH), and I think MCH needs something more to make it more appealing to a group in lieu of a BRD (this isn’t taking into account perhaps some job redesign—it is the least popular DPS job, and I hear a lot of complaints about the way its rotation is designed, aside from the latency/ping dependency Wildfire has). Potency increases and maybe an adjustment to Wildfire would go a long way—a friend actually suggested to me that Wildfire function like Rapid Fire, in that it lasts for a certain number of GCDs/oGCDs so that you don’t have to worry too much about high ping causing you to lose the final ability for your Wildfire.

I can’t speak on elaborate redesign options for MCH since I don’t play it, but those are a few suggestions.

[Wayfinder3]

a

Bard and Machinist are the classes who lose things if Disembowel is removed, not Dragoon. If anything, the 5% provided by the buff doesn't really need to go back into the Dragoon (since the power of Disembowel is that it boosts you AND the Bard and probably a Machinist if you wanna go full meta), except maybe boosting Heavy Thrust further or something.

You are very much incorrect on that assumption. If Disembowel is removed
Dragoon lose 300 min to 600 Max raid dps
Bard loses 300 Pdps but Still Keeps it's overwhelming amount of utility
Machnist loses 300 pdps and since it's pdps matters more to it than it's utility to keep it competitive with bard. This job will probbaly fall into obscurity however, it doesn't lose any of it's utility either

DRG is the job that loses in this situation as disembowel's gain should be attributed to it.

[HyperiusUltima]

Snip.

...yeah, but Disembowel's piercing debuff can be rebaked into its Heavy Thrust for pDPS. Not to mention, their rDPS shouldn't be that overwhelming so much as to override NIN's contribution with Trick by a mile just with 2 Ranged DPS that rely on Piercing. As much as DRG's job loses some value, it balances out with the fact that DRG has access to Litany and Dragon Sight, which are two powerful raid buffs on their own.

BRD is actually fine as it is, but bringing their DPS up to accomodate for the Piercing Loss would possibly solidify BRD's slot in the raid despite its very strong utility capabilities compared to MCH. If anything, that's why I thought about MCH getting the DPS increase instead of BRD to compete with the other DPS.

...and after Disembowel's gone, what other variables are we to check? As far as I know, MNK is a threat to DRG given they have good pDPS along with rDPS in Brotherhood as well as the utility Mantra. I'm also wanting to think NIN could use a readjustment in regards to Trick Attack since it's one of the strongest raid utilities that increase rDPS by 10% outright; though, all the nuances in NIN's kit tend to show its pDPS not being as high to balance out, so I would think just lowering Trick to 5% and accomodating the rDPS lost would make sense.