Disembowel: Please Fix this Mess

[Wayfinder3]

a

Bard and Machinist are the classes who lose things if Disembowel is removed, not Dragoon. If anything, the 5% provided by the buff doesn't really need to go back into the Dragoon (since the power of Disembowel is that it boosts you AND the Bard and probably a Machinist if you wanna go full meta), except maybe boosting Heavy Thrust further or something.

You are very much incorrect on that assumption. If Disembowel is removed
Dragoon lose 300 min to 600 Max raid dps
Bard loses 300 Pdps but Still Keeps it's overwhelming amount of utility
Machnist loses 300 pdps and since it's pdps matters more to it than it's utility to keep it competitive with bard. This job will probbaly fall into obscurity however, it doesn't lose any of it's utility either

DRG is the job that loses in this situation as disembowel's gain should be attributed to it.

[HyperiusUltima]

Snip.

...yeah, but Disembowel's piercing debuff can be rebaked into its Heavy Thrust for pDPS. Not to mention, their rDPS shouldn't be that overwhelming so much as to override NIN's contribution with Trick by a mile just with 2 Ranged DPS that rely on Piercing. As much as DRG's job loses some value, it balances out with the fact that DRG has access to Litany and Dragon Sight, which are two powerful raid buffs on their own.

BRD is actually fine as it is, but bringing their DPS up to accomodate for the Piercing Loss would possibly solidify BRD's slot in the raid despite its very strong utility capabilities compared to MCH. If anything, that's why I thought about MCH getting the DPS increase instead of BRD to compete with the other DPS.

...and after Disembowel's gone, what other variables are we to check? As far as I know, MNK is a threat to DRG given they have good pDPS along with rDPS in Brotherhood as well as the utility Mantra. I'm also wanting to think NIN could use a readjustment in regards to Trick Attack since it's one of the strongest raid utilities that increase rDPS by 10% outright; though, all the nuances in NIN's kit tend to show its pDPS not being as high to balance out, so I would think just lowering Trick to 5% and accomodating the rDPS lost would make sense.

[Remedi]

Why would they rebunk it in HT after they went out of their way to nerf HT because apparently was too hard to keep it up, same with Storm's eye?

[HyperiusUltima]

Why would they rebunk it in HT after they went out of their way to nerf HT because apparently was too hard to keep it up, same with Storm's eye?

Because of the fact that if you take away Disembowel's Piercing Debuff(since their damage IS piercing), their entire kit gets nerfed by 5% if you don't rebuff HT back to 10%.

[Wayfinder3]

Because of the fact that if you take away Disembowel's Piercing Debuff(since their damage IS piercing), their entire kit gets nerfed by 5% if you don't rebuff HT back to 10%.

This is what will happen post disembowel nerf
MCH will fall hard, it'll become about as viable as rdm
Bard will remain as best dps as it's utility is ridiculous
Drg will see a buff to it's potencies across the board increasing it's personal dps but reducing it's over all viability
(making heavy thrust to 10% doesn't equate to the 300 dps gain that brd and mch get from drg. So if drg gets it's heavy thrust put to 10%, it still missing the 5% it was supposed to give to the ranged and thus it'll be a hard nerf that could kill the job

MNK & NIN will go up in value
SAM won't
SMN will
BLM and RDM won't

[EllieShadeflare]

This is what will happen post disembowel nerf
MCH will fall hard, it'll become about as viable as rdm
Bard will remain as best dps as it's utility is ridiculous
Drg will see a buff to it's potencies across the board increasing it's personal dps but reducing it's over all viability
(making heavy thrust to 10% doesn't equate to the 300 dps gain that brd and mch get from drg. So if drg gets it's heavy thrust put to 10%, it still missing the 5% it was supposed to give to the ranged and thus it'll be a hard nerf that could kill the job

MNK & NIN will go up in value
SAM won't
SMN will
BLM and RDM won't

You buff Bard and Machinist to compensate for the loss of Disembowel's piercing debuff. If need be, you put 5% back into Heavy Thrust (making it a 10% again) or roll Heavy Thrust's effect into Disembowel, turning it into a 10% damage up you maintain by comboing, which makes the job flow better, and probably allows for something more interesting to happen with Heavy Thrust.

Machinist might need a 5-10% potency buff, maybe reinvigorate Hot Shot. Of the two Phys. Ranged DPSes, it's in the rougher spot, and SB seems to try and make it the more selfish of the two "support" DPSes.

Bard doesn't need much of a buff, since its major strength comes from its utility.

[silentwindfr]

the trouble don't lie with disembowl only, it's a trouble tie to every resistance debuff... we did get ride of the elemental wheel, but we have this buff that force group meta.

if you don't have anymore defense debuff, the meta will not be as rigid at it is right now.

the loose of this damage from this debuff can easily put it back into the potency of the skill for made up.

[Tex_Mex]

I believe that any balanced dps composition should always include 1 magic dps, 1 physical ranged dps, and 1 melee dps, with the final slot being completely open to every DPS class. This type of setup seems to me like it would be the best possible solution for the playerbase, so that each of the DPS types can be relevant and have a spot in high end raiding. I do not believe that this goal is possible without some homogenization, though I am a staunch believer that complete homogenization would be a disaster. Balancing these 2 factors is not easy, but I believe a happy middle ground could be formed. With that in mind, here is what I would do to encourage class diversity within team compositions:


Step 1) Remove all current 100% uptime resistance debuffs from the game. Piercing, slashing, and blunt resistance downs are inherently imbalanced because there are not even numbers of classes that benefit from those damage types. 5 classes benefit from slashing down, but only 1 benefits from blunt down?? Who thought that was a good idea?

Step 2) Introduce 3 new 100% uptime damage resistance debuffs: Magic resistance down, Physical Ranged resistance down, and Melee resistance down. These generalized resistance downs would greatly simplify how debuffs work and allow these debuffs to benefit more classes.

Step 3) Give EVERY DPS class one of these resistance downs as a normal part of their optimal rotations. The debuffs would be assigned as follows:

All Melee DPS => Physical Ranged Resistance Down Debuff
All Physical Ranged DPS => Magic Resistance Down Debuff
All Magic DPS => Melee Resistance Down Debuff

*These Debuffs WILL NOT STACK with a debuff of the same type (I.E. if you bring 2 magic DPS, the party will not get double melee resistance down)

Step 4) Rebalance class potencies to make up for the losses and gains in pDPS. Some classes would lose a lot from a change like this, while others would gain a lot. A simple potency rebalance would be all that is needed to bring these numbers back in line.



Reasoning - The Good
This setup highly encourages parties to bring at least 1 of each of the 3 DPS types. In fact, (assuming good DPS balance) this setup will make that composition mandatory in order to achieve maximum rDPS.
Using this idea would completely alleviate the imbalance caused by Disembowel, and would put all DPS on a more even playing field when trying to find parties.
This setup also allows parties complete freedom with the 4th DPS slot, since the group will already have access to all of the resistance debuffs.
This setup also allows tank and healer damage to benefit from the debuffs, though the healers and tanks will not be able to provide the debuffs.
Using this methodology, individual job abilities like BRD utility, Trick Atttack, Battle Littany, etc. do not need to be removed or shared, so jobs can still maintain distinct identities.

Reasoning - The Bad
This is yet another step towards homogenization, and it also completely trivializes game mechanics like damage types (piercing, blunt, etc.). Personally, I think these are trivial mechanics to begin with, but this could be a downside.
This type of setup makes having one of each of the DPS types basically mandatory for end game raiding. While I see this as a good thing, forcing players to play a game one specific way will undoubtedly turn some players off.
One imbalance to this idea is that Melee players get the short end of the stick when it comes to the rDPS provided to the party because of this change. Their debuff would only affect the physical ranged DPS (maximum 2 people, but more likely 1 person), while the other debuffs affect not only the DPS, but the healers and tanks as well. To balance this, the debuff that melee players give could be increased to compensate (say from 5% to 8% or something like that). There are multiple ways to address this, but I feel it is an extremely minor issue.


Conclusion
In my opinion, this solution would go a long way towards balancing classes and encouraging diverse class compositions, while leaving the identity of FF jobs intact.

[Remedi]

Because of the fact that if you take away Disembowel's Piercing Debuff(since their damage IS piercing), their entire kit gets nerfed by 5% if you don't rebuff HT back to 10%.

It's more likely they'll just buff potencies instead, they made that change to HT and EYE because they wanted for ppl to be less punished if HT was falling off according to them, as such if they were to remove disembowel they would buff their skills instead an autoattack nerf will likely to happen but they might just compensate it with higher potency gain on weaponskill across the board.

That is unless they want to go back on that statement, but since they want for ppl to suck less on their job I'm on the fence on it

[dejiko_san]

Stop trying to nerf my job to make your job feel better.

Thank you

Signed an annoyed Dragoon.