Disembowel: Please Fix this Mess

[HyoMinPark]

I'm waiting for the response that offers a solid reason as to why Dragoon would need a buff and Machinist and Bard shouldn't if Disembowel's effect is removed.

If I may:

DRG has its own utility in the form of Battle Litany and Dragon Sight, but it is mostly in the meta because of the bonus it can give BRD/MCH through piercing. Disembowel alone earns roughly ~300 rDPS contribution for 1 ranged, ~600 rDPS if you run both. The combination of Disembowel with Litany and Dragon Sight make DRG almost beat out the rDPS contribution larger rBuffs give (e.g., Trick Attack) if you’re running with just one physical ranged; and, if you’re running double physical ranged, DRG’s combined utility craps all over Trick Attack.

While Litany and Dragon Sight are still great buffs, Dragon Sight accounts for ~1% of a total DPS increase on its target, and Litany does not scale as well as Trick Attack does in terms of contribution—mostly because TA is a straight damage increase and has a shorter recast, where as Litany is critical hit rate up (so contribution is reliant on RNG for crits) and is on a fairly long timer. Without the 300~600 rDPS contribution from Disembowel, DRG can easily be subbed out for MNK, since Brotherhood is really good for all physical comps, affects straight-up damage like TA does, and is on a shorter timer (lines up great with WAR’s Inner Release, so they’re happy, and Litany is worthless to a WAR now, because they will never not be in IR when Litany is up, and IR = auto Crit Direct Hits).

So there would have to be something added to DRG to make it competitive with the other melee—either they reduce the cooldown on Litany to allow it more uses in a given fight (and, by extension, more rDPS contribution), or they buff DRG’s personal damage to be a bit more selfish with a hint of utility. As it stands right now, their personal damage is not enough to offset the 300~600 rDPS contribution they would lose if piercing were removed—and they would be losing 5% of their personal damage as well, since all their damage is piercing damage.


As for BRD/MCH, I think they may have to be tweaked slightly. Because BRD, as it stands now, is behind in personal damage compared to the other DPS, but it can at least be offset by the massive amounts of rDPS contribution and utility that they offer—though I would personally like to see at least a tiny tweak, maybe ~2%, so that I don’t feel so weak in terms of personal damage like I do currently without a DRG (no DRG = me sad BRD)...but I can understand why they may not want to do that (even though it does suck). MCH, on the other hand, only has Hypercharge (which is not nearly as good as Trick Attack) and Dismantle (which groups can live without), so they would have to have some sort of buff to compensate because they don’t offer enough rDPS contribution like BRD does to be competitive—BRD has everything MCH can offer, and BRD does it better.

Even now, with piercing in the game, MCH gets subbed out for BLM or SMN. Clunky gameplay aside, it will need some TLC if piercing is actually removed to not make it deader than it already is.

[EllieShadeflare]

If I may:

DRG has its own utility in the form of Battle Litany and Dragon Sight, but it is mostly in the meta because of the bonus it can give BRD/MCH through piercing. Disembowel alone earns roughly ~300 rDPS contribution for 1 ranged, ~600 rDPS if you run both. The combination of Disembowel with Litany and Dragon Sight make DRG almost beat out the rDPS contribution larger rBuffs give (e.g., Trick Attack) if you’re running with just one physical ranged; and, if you’re running double physical ranged, DRG’s combined utility craps all over Trick Attack.

While Litany and Dragon Sight are still great buffs, Dragon Sight accounts for ~1% of a total DPS increase on its target, and Litany does not scale as well as Trick Attack does in terms of contribution—mostly because TA is a straight damage increase and has a shorter recast, where as Litany is critical hit rate up (so contribution is reliant on RNG for crits) and is on a fairly long timer. Without the 300~600 rDPS contribution from Disembowel, DRG can easily be subbed out for MNK, since Brotherhood is really good for all physical comps, affects straight-up damage like TA does, and is on a shorter timer (lines up great with WAR’s Inner Release, so they’re happy, and Litany is worthless to a WAR now, because they will never not be in IR when Litany is up, and IR = auto Crit Direct Hits).

So there would have to be something added to DRG to make it competitive with the other melee—either they reduce the cooldown on Litany to allow it more uses in a given fight (and, by extension, more rDPS contribution), or they buff DRG’s personal damage to be a bit more selfish with a hint of utility. As it stands right now, their personal damage is not enough to offset the 300~600 rDPS contribution they would lose if piercing were removed—and they would be losing 5% of their personal damage as well, since all their damage is piercing damage.


As for BRD/MCH, I think they may have to be tweaked slightly. Because BRD, as it stands now, is behind in personal damage compared to the other DPS, but it can at least be offset by the massive amounts of rDPS contribution and utility that they offer—though I would personally like to see at least a tiny tweak, maybe ~2%, so that I don’t feel so weak in terms of personal damage like I do currently without a DRG (no DRG = me sad BRD)...but I can understand why they may not want to do that (even though it does suck). MCH, on the other hand, only has Hypercharge (which is not nearly as good as Trick Attack) and Dismantle (which groups can live without), so they would have to have some sort of buff to compensate because they don’t offer enough rDPS contribution like BRD does to be competitive—BRD has everything MCH can offer, and BRD does it better.

Even now, with piercing in the game, MCH gets subbed out for BLM or SMN. Clunky gameplay aside, it will need some TLC if piercing is actually removed to not make it deader than it already is.

First off, thank you thank you thank you for a proper response.

I can kinda see where you're going with this, so perhaps either Disembowel should be a wider buff (so affecting more than just Bard and Machinist and themselves) or only affect Dragoon. Or buff Dragon Sight/Litany to make them more impactful.

Secondly, yes, Bard and Machinist ought to have better buffs as a result of them being the "support" classes, and shouldn't feel like they're pathetic when they go without a Dragoon. Fully agree.

That said, Machinist does deserve another look at so it's better in damage than Bard (and maybe even Ninja) to compensate for its relative lack of support.

[HyoMinPark]

First off, thank you thank you thank you for a proper response.

I can kinda see where you're going with this, so perhaps either Disembowel should be a wider buff (so affecting more than just Bard and Machinist and themselves) or only affect Dragoon. Or buff Dragon Sight/Litany to make them more impactful.

You’re very welcome. Anything to give a bit of insight. ^^

If we were going to keep the resistance downs in the game come 5.0, and if Yoshida is insistent on not giving it to BRD/MCH because “too OP”, they should give it to another job. I have seen people in the past suggest SAM or RDM. It would give them a bit more utility, give them viability in optimization teams, offer more job comps, and would make BRD/MCH happy, since they wouldn’t feel unnecessarily gimped in their damage from just not having a DRG around. I’m personally more of a fan of removing it entirely, but either would work. I just dislike having to be dependent on a DRG as it is right now. ^^;;

Buffing Litany and Dragon Sight if Disembowel were removed would feel almost necessary, just because a DRG would then fall behind other jobs in utility, and wouldn’t be able to make it up in personal damage—this is the exact problem RDM and SAM have right now: little to no utility, and not enough personal damage to make it up. Personally, buffing Litany would be more beneficial since it will affect everyone, and Dragon Sight is just one person.
Because I will be fighting people for that buffed tether!!!

Buffing DRG’s remaining utility could help offset that, if the developers were intent on not adjusting their potencies. I think, if the potencies were adjusted, it would probably have to be a bit more than 5%, to give them back what they lost from piercing being removed, and a little bit extra to make up for the fact that they aren’t bringing in an additional 300~600 rDPS with a BRD and/or MCH around.

Secondly, yes, Bard and Machinist ought to have better buffs as a result of them being the "support" classes, and shouldn't feel like they're pathetic when they go without a Dragoon. Fully agree.

It is a very crappy feeling to run with a DRG, and then run without one, and watch your damage drop 5% and know that you cannot do anything about it; I speak from personal experience lol. With all of DRG’s buffs combined, I lose about ~500 DPS total, ~300 of that being Disembowel, which would easily make the difference between purple and orange with some of my current logs. I have goals to get oranges, so it makes me sad that I cannot get them solely because I lack a DRG. I would like to be able to achieve oranges without having to have a DRG there; BRD/MCH cannot achieve orange without one—purples, yes, but oranges, no.

I have no issue buffing my party; I love BRD and I love being a support role. I just wish that I could not have to rely on a 5% resistance down debuff to have decent numbers. I know all the other physical DPS apply their own debuffs, so unless they are just completely mucking up their rotation, they can be more independent, whereas I feel really dependent. I wouldn’t ask for the 5%, but at least ~2%.
Or they could give me back my fire circle, and return potencies to my oGCDs—looking at you, Repelling Shot. Oh, and give me Blunt Arrow back lol.

That said, Machinist does deserve another look at so it's better in damage than Bard (and maybe even Ninja) to compensate for its relative lack of support.

I would be completely behind MCH being the more selfish ranged. BRD’s utility earns it a spot in most comps as it currently stands (rarely are they subbed out for a MCH), and I think MCH needs something more to make it more appealing to a group in lieu of a BRD (this isn’t taking into account perhaps some job redesign—it is the least popular DPS job, and I hear a lot of complaints about the way its rotation is designed, aside from the latency/ping dependency Wildfire has). Potency increases and maybe an adjustment to Wildfire would go a long way—a friend actually suggested to me that Wildfire function like Rapid Fire, in that it lasts for a certain number of GCDs/oGCDs so that you don’t have to worry too much about high ping causing you to lose the final ability for your Wildfire.

I can’t speak on elaborate redesign options for MCH since I don’t play it, but those are a few suggestions.