Why the hate with endgame fights?

[DrWho2010]

i just wish people could actually perform in pf groups. I wrote in a Susano EX party - "Farm for a bit, know what you are doing." other than me - no one knew what they were doing. it was horrible. how is this fight still hard at this point in the game?

[Aylis]

So, I'll start this with a question: what is the issue with endgame fights? Why are some individuals opposed to them?

Dunno, I neither hate nor oppose them. I personally just have no desire to do them or try them. So I don't give them a second thought. If those fights are someone else's cup of tea. Then let them enjoy it as far as I'm concerned.

[Shurrikhan]

And like i said the trend started with those players which led to the attitude that still exists today.ie being toxic to players over gear/dps parses,failing a mechanic.When people act toxic in this way it starts a trend and then becomes a norm unless something is done about it.Se have tried to address the issue by nerfing content or buffing jobs but this is and always will be the wrong way to approach it.I havent ignored anything you stated.

Nerfing content and/or buffing jobs has never been given as a solution or even as mitigation to "toxicity" derived from people attempting content they are unable to do within nearly the expected span of learning time or under the criteria under which they accepted recruitment.

Expressing frustration and making decisive cuts over people failing to hold their own as promised in throughput or mechanical performance is far from being "toxic". And the standards for wanting to actually finish the content as specified, with a party matching the requirements you expressly listed, is hardly an 'immigrant taint'. You can't just blame people being held accountable to some misguided carryover from other MMOs.

The only thing that has increased with time are conventions built around the tools to increase player quality of life. We now can more easily determine who's holding us back, and, if need be, replace just them instead of disbanding, reforming with new players, wiping over another weak link or two, disbanding, reforming, repeat, repeat. That is quality of life increase. And perhaps if more people would hold themselves accountable to what's expected of them, or make their own parties fitting what they are actually willing to do, they'd force far less conflict.

Tl;dr: Don't blame the immigrants from other MMOs for the most basic reasons for conflict (poor communication and/or broken promises), and that conflict running its due course. They are not the reasons for toxicity, nor, in any event, are the conflicts you're talking about toxic on the part of those you're accusing.

[Melichoir]

Honestly, I havent personally seen a lot of "hate" towards endgame bosses save for here on forums or reddit. In game, not really. But Id hazard that tis because people want to see full forms of certain bosses (Neo-ExDeath), but can only do that if they do savage. A lot of people say "OMG Savage is brain dead easy! Git Gud!" but that position comes from people not understanding others skill levels and time constraints. Yes, dedicated people can learn any fight and do well. If you have previous savage experience, youll progress faster. But it still is a time sink to learn and beat fights. And that may make it harder for people to do cause some people might take longer to learn and "git gud".

So in some light, people want to experience savage stuff but dont have the time or ability, and feel a bit jipped by their own circumstances. Ill say it sucks, sure, but savage is there for the people who want teh challange. If you want some of that, you gotta square away the fact it takes time and practice to do it. You cant demand that you want access to it but dont want to put the time or effort in.

[Sebazy]

I think the problem is rather simple really.

There is literally no difficulty curve in this game and hasn't really been since ARR's launch.

In 2.0, the last few dungeons all had teeth and would happily punish you if you disrespected them and many of the mechanics used were lightly toned down versions of what you'd later see in the hard mode primals. By doing your end game dungeons, you were pretty much training yourself for hard mode primals. Thus the populace in general was reasonably prepared for the end game's gatekeeper aka Titan HM.

By comparison, recent Expert Roulette dungeons have been face rolls across the board with the vast majority of mechanics being entirely ignorable currently, yet the entry primals are significantly more complex and are a pretty solid challenge when tackled in ilvl appropriate gear.

In some respects, O1S is actually a pretty good lead on from dungeons and rabanastre. The problem is, it's the right sort of encounter in totally the wrong place, it really should have been the very first Primal of the expansion, with a more complex encounter taking it's place as the first Savage step.

The other approach of course is the have the Expert dungeons throw watered down primal and savage mechanics at you. Of course this requires tighter communication and planning within the encounter teams and might not be reasonably feasible in mid tier patches.

I do think it's something that needs to be addressed tho, the current design philosophy is just making significant swathes of the community complacent and lazy in their play style which leads to a horrible culture shock when they try to dip their toes into the raid scene. That in turn leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths on both side of the coin which in turn helps reinforce the whole casuals vs raiders thing.

[Selova]

Snip.

It's over exaggeration. People use their bad personal experiences and like to paint their experiences in a way that makes it look like it's happening everywhere to everyone all the time.


It's not even close to as bad as they claim, it's another example of "If it happens to me it's clearly happening to everyone" scenario.

Some in this community even have this weird personal vendetta against wanting to improve yourself, they are so vehemently against it that they will report you if you even sneeze in their general direction, it's why people that parse are incredibly hesitant on giving people advice in groups because they don't want to risk a ban so they just remain silent the entire time.


It's pretty sad that people in this community are like this and quite honestly, pathetic.

[Caelum_Dragguell]

As far as high level content or any content developed for this theme park mmo is concerned, people have a tendency, (maybe I'm generalizing) based on the concept of limited development resources, that if Yoshi and the good crew work on something that isn't of interest to them, that they are losing out on more content that they would enjoy. What should be realized is that there are separate departments, a necessity in this format of mmo, that focus on each facet of the theme park.

Side Note: I feel like I've been in a bubble considering some of the things that are posted on these forums. I've been playing and raiding since launch, and I can count on my hands the number of times anyone I've played with has gotten so aggravated that they'd use derogatory terms or personal insults based on performance of another player in game chat. The most I'd ever see is someone getting mad and being passive aggressive at times.

[AxlStream]

People just hate actually spending some time and effort. We had 3 examples this expansion alone!

1. Shinryu
2. Neo-Exdeath
3. Ultimate Coils of Bahamut
BONUS! 4. Kefka, God of Magic (unconfirmed but highly likely)

All these fights generated complaints because they aren't Netflix and chill easy. Actually required commitment and effort to even get to/beat. I'm sorry but why should you get the same rewards as me, someone who actually participated in actual raid progression not get something extra compared to lil Timmy here who still thinks spamming Tornado Kick is a good idea? This community is literally afraid of "gitting gud" because it'll turn them into the WoW community. That's also why someone putting effort into all content he does is vilified and why parser users are demonized.

[KaivaC]

I absolutely agree that there's been a bit of an issue with dungeons not exactly preparing players for harder content. And the more I think about it, the more I start to lean towards an idea that maybe existing dungeons should have a third level of difficulty to them (after Hard Mode). Aurum Vale and Pharos Sirius are perhaps the clearest examples in my mind of what harder should start to look like, because you have to fight smartly in those dungeons. I'd throw in Halatali as well, if only because the bosses require a little bit more on not only the tank, but the party as well. But the reason I would say that we would need to propose a 3rd level of difficulty for dungeons is to not only give the hardcore base another level of challenge outside of boss battles, but to also allow the casual base the option to try their hand in it and maybe get a true step-up towards Savage - as opposed to going from face-roll to Savage/Ex. Like they did with Ultimate Coil, maybe they could grab someone who isn't part of the core dev team for most content - heck, maybe some interns - and try that concept out.

Give it a new tag - Elite Mode. Naturally, incentivize it with something that players really want. More than tomestones, but less than the weekly drops in Savage/Ex.

[Azper]

As someone who never considered themselves up to par with endgame prior to Stormblood, I've actually accomplished more than I thought I was capable of, thus I do not think there is an issue with the fights. Rather I find the issue lies in the players and their unwillingness to improve to a standard that would allow themselves to complete said battles. You can't keep blaming the game for your own shortcomings. Moreover, I'm quite honestly tired of the cries of "toxicity" and "elitism" that supposedly plagues endgame. If you're really running into it that frequently, you have to ask yourself what the common denominator is in all of those groups... I'm just saying.