Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Squintina]

there is no difficulty curve in this game. at expert level you can just ignore so much of it. yojimbo in kugane castle. you can literally stand there go make a coffee while you let daigoro get ALL THE GOLD. and you still will NOT die. It's essentially impossible to fail that mechanic.

I don't know about that, that seems to be an exaggeration.

While I will agree that the increase to savage might be way too much compared to normal, the idea that somehow Extreme is the same difficulty as Tam Tara is just ludicrous. Maybe you're that good that you feel that way, but not everyone is you. Why just yesterday I watched (I wasn't in there, I was literally watching someone else play) a group wipe multiple times on Limitless Blue (Hard, not even Extreme) because of not tanking properly, not damaging properly, and not dodging properly. Had that group done Extreme, there is no way it would have eventually be beaten, but I'm pretty sure any of them could handle Tam Tara.

I'll agree that the difficulty jumps for savage, but let's not go crazy and pretend like it's all the same until then.

Back on topic, The hate is just because some people are just not as good. Some of those people will welcome it and try to get better, others won't and will ask for nerfs and call people who disagree with them elitist and act like you need to treat the game "like a job" to get to be good (No you don't. You might need that to be "world first" good, but not just "good" in general).

Some people also blame the toxic community (which is only a small % of the community, it just feels like it's more for those who are unfortunate enough to encounter it because of how bad it feels), but if that's the case then it wouldn't just be about endgame. I've seen people be jerks in low level content, even as low as guildhests (My first ever received "git gud" was when I was trying to tank in a guildhest. ). Jerks will be jerks whenever they can.

[Sacred_Nym]

I'll agree that the difficulty jumps for savage, but let's not go crazy and pretend like it's all the same until then.

The big gap is between Normal and Extreme though. Hell, given this past tier extreme and savage may well be the same thing given how easy O1S is. But if you take a DF random from expert roulette and drop him in Laksmi or O1S he will wipe the group. Without doubt. Because he doesn't have a clue what he's doing and the difficulty of casual content has basically said that that's okay.

[Inuk9]

snip

First. You're way off topic here. You transformed a "why people hate endgame?" into a "Why my hardcore raiding is gone?" and second you are wrong about the skill ceilling. You want challange?

Unnending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate)

Can you still say Yoshida is lowering the skill ceiling? Because there is no other content in the game harder than this.

[Dzian]

First. You're way off topic here. You transformed a "why people hate endgame?" into a "Why my hardcore raiding is gone?"

Nah I didn't. you might want to re read what I said.

I basically said some people hate endgame because they find it unapproachable / overwhelming because of the lack of a real difficulty curve.
players wanting to do endgame stuff are greeted by this massive increase in difficulty and it's quite simply overwhelming for many of them. they clear a normal mode and think there ready for the extreme / savage and they're a million miles away.

I also said if the game had a real difficulty curve that promoted player growth and improvement as they progressed through the game instead of what currently exists then it's likely more players might then might actually find end game fights to be more fun and approachable

and second you are wrong about the skill ceilling. You want challange?

Unnending Coil of Bahamut (Ultimate)

Can you still say Yoshida is lowering the skill ceiling? Because there is no other content in the game harder than this.

I'm not wrong at all. Creator and omega were deliberately made easier in attempt to make them more accessible. the ceiling you need to reach in order to clear them is lower than it ever has been.
what they did was basically bring the content DOWN closer to the player. and not push the player UP closer to the content.

that is why the top players rofl stomped omega and creator because they quite literally smashed straight through the ceiling and kept on going up.

In a way ultimate doesn't count. Because ultimate is designed for the 1% of the 1% basically. by comparison making creator and omega easier and lowering the skill ceiling was done to try and close the skill gap and making raiding more accessible to the masses

[Selova]

Snip.

It's over exaggeration. People use their bad personal experiences and like to paint their experiences in a way that makes it look like it's happening everywhere to everyone all the time.


It's not even close to as bad as they claim, it's another example of "If it happens to me it's clearly happening to everyone" scenario.

Some in this community even have this weird personal vendetta against wanting to improve yourself, they are so vehemently against it that they will report you if you even sneeze in their general direction, it's why people that parse are incredibly hesitant on giving people advice in groups because they don't want to risk a ban so they just remain silent the entire time.


It's pretty sad that people in this community are like this and quite honestly, pathetic.

[Caelum_Dragguell]

As far as high level content or any content developed for this theme park mmo is concerned, people have a tendency, (maybe I'm generalizing) based on the concept of limited development resources, that if Yoshi and the good crew work on something that isn't of interest to them, that they are losing out on more content that they would enjoy. What should be realized is that there are separate departments, a necessity in this format of mmo, that focus on each facet of the theme park.

Side Note: I feel like I've been in a bubble considering some of the things that are posted on these forums. I've been playing and raiding since launch, and I can count on my hands the number of times anyone I've played with has gotten so aggravated that they'd use derogatory terms or personal insults based on performance of another player in game chat. The most I'd ever see is someone getting mad and being passive aggressive at times.

[AxlStream]

People just hate actually spending some time and effort. We had 3 examples this expansion alone!

1. Shinryu
2. Neo-Exdeath
3. Ultimate Coils of Bahamut
BONUS! 4. Kefka, God of Magic (unconfirmed but highly likely)

All these fights generated complaints because they aren't Netflix and chill easy. Actually required commitment and effort to even get to/beat. I'm sorry but why should you get the same rewards as me, someone who actually participated in actual raid progression not get something extra compared to lil Timmy here who still thinks spamming Tornado Kick is a good idea? This community is literally afraid of "gitting gud" because it'll turn them into the WoW community. That's also why someone putting effort into all content he does is vilified and why parser users are demonized.

[KaivaC]

I absolutely agree that there's been a bit of an issue with dungeons not exactly preparing players for harder content. And the more I think about it, the more I start to lean towards an idea that maybe existing dungeons should have a third level of difficulty to them (after Hard Mode). Aurum Vale and Pharos Sirius are perhaps the clearest examples in my mind of what harder should start to look like, because you have to fight smartly in those dungeons. I'd throw in Halatali as well, if only because the bosses require a little bit more on not only the tank, but the party as well. But the reason I would say that we would need to propose a 3rd level of difficulty for dungeons is to not only give the hardcore base another level of challenge outside of boss battles, but to also allow the casual base the option to try their hand in it and maybe get a true step-up towards Savage - as opposed to going from face-roll to Savage/Ex. Like they did with Ultimate Coil, maybe they could grab someone who isn't part of the core dev team for most content - heck, maybe some interns - and try that concept out.

Give it a new tag - Elite Mode. Naturally, incentivize it with something that players really want. More than tomestones, but less than the weekly drops in Savage/Ex.

[Azper]

As someone who never considered themselves up to par with endgame prior to Stormblood, I've actually accomplished more than I thought I was capable of, thus I do not think there is an issue with the fights. Rather I find the issue lies in the players and their unwillingness to improve to a standard that would allow themselves to complete said battles. You can't keep blaming the game for your own shortcomings. Moreover, I'm quite honestly tired of the cries of "toxicity" and "elitism" that supposedly plagues endgame. If you're really running into it that frequently, you have to ask yourself what the common denominator is in all of those groups... I'm just saying.

[KaivaC]

snip

Here's another thing that I really have to address - personally, I really haven't seen much toxicity, and less elitism. So I'm not exactly sure why it keeps getting brought up, particularly here in this thread. What even is elitism anymore? Is it some cliched term that just gets thrown around? Same with toxicity. Nowadays, what do those terms even mean now?

PS: I am aware of what they are supposed to mean, yes, but really...what exactly do they mean in today's community, because I've seen it in other gaming communities. I'd hate to be pointing fingers at a single company...but...you know...Overwatch, Hearthstone, and WoW are pretty brutal about this behavior. Mostly Overwatch, from what I've personally seen. *shudder* I almost never want to play Hanzo again.