Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Dzian]

If you think people would enjoy "ice floor, the boss," you'd be in for a big disappointment. I can't think of another duty people would abandon more in roulette.

Thing is Sebazy is right. there is no difficulty curve in this game. at expert level you can just ignore so much of it. yojimbo in kugane castle. you can literally stand there go make a coffee while you let daigoro get ALL THE GOLD. and you still will NOT die. It's essentially impossible to fail that mechanic.

There is no difficulty curve in this game its just one great long horizontal line. that is then met by a sheer vertical cliff when it comes to savage / ultimate. and I thinks that's where the hate comes from. players clear normal and think they're ready for savage but they're a million miles away.

what makes it worse is yoshis attempt to close the skill gap between players was done backwards.. instead of bringing the skill floor up what Yoshi did was lower the skill ceiling by making creator and omega easier. this didn't work though cos those top players just punched straight through the ceiling and kept going up...

If they raised the floor as the game progressed you'd likely find more people willing to take on harder contents as they'd feel more prepared for it. and also likely find player retention is better because clearing things would actually feel more satisfying and rewarding. where as clearing a fight its actually impossible to fail. doesn't really feel satisfying at all.

Here's a thread I did ages ago with some really cheesy mspaint charts to illustrate

I think it highlights the rather large issue the game has with its current difficulty curve or rather lack of. and also shows why so many players are always crying for nerfs on even the simplest of things.

the menagerie for example was never hard. the main problem people had was they hadn't done there 70 quest and got there 290 gear. some i'd seen in there were still in 270 with a few random dungeon drops in odd slots..

so imo one of the biggest problems with hard (high end) content is not the difficult of it. but rather the absolute lack of difficulty everything that leads up to it is.

the other issue is powercreep. and rewards being outdated so fast it just isn't worth getting them. but that aain also factors in the difficulty curve.. my i330 samurai is more than geared enough to clear everything escept maybe ultimate so there's just no need for 340. especially when 4.2 will have 350 entry gear.

I generally think if the difficulty curve was actually a curve and promoted player growth and improvement then a lot of people would find the endgame fights a lot more approachable and fun. instead of finding them like basically smashing there face against a brick wall

[KaldeaSahaline]

I would love to see all the hate if SE ever makes every savage,ex as hard as ultimate.

Would make for a nice Sunday afternoon with popcorn.

What exactly is the purpose of this post? I don't think a single person has advocated for anything of the sort.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Why don't you come over to the PvP forum to see some people who have the gall to ask for PvP shinies to be available through achievement points/Gold Saucer/etc? They don't want to work for it, but still want the rewards.

Right? Cause getting 4 wins for enough to earn a body piece or weapon (at 4000 Wolf Marks, the most expensive the gear gets now) is like, impossible. /s

[RiyahArp]

I generally think if the difficulty curve was actually a curve and promoted player growth and improvement then a lot of people would find the endgame fights a lot more approachable and fun. instead of finding them like basically smashing there face against a brick wall

I want you to imagine susano ex, but with the following differences.

-everyone is forced to do him if they want to do something as simple as access tomes or the 24 man raid.
-he pops up randomly in trial roulette and gives you all of 60 tomes and no weapon for a reward.
-half the people don't watch a video, and every trial is a learning party.

What do you think would happen, given how much people complain about him when he's completely optional and doesn't gate content? Think about that when you talk about difficulty curves.

Right? Cause getting 4 wins for enough to earn a body piece or weapon (at 4000 Wolf Marks, the most expensive the gear gets now) is like, impossible. /s

except it costs something like 16k to get a set of garo glamour. One set, with something like ten sets that are unique total. And because of that, garo gear is also in the gold saucer, surprise surprise. The original pvp armor only escapes this because after i110, they forced it to all be archetypes instead of jobs with the exception of DRG. If you have 3 or more jobs leveled, we're starting to talk a serious amount of matches.

[Kazgrel]

Do what?

Garo gear has nothing to do with endgame pve fights and is not difficult to acquire at all. Time consuming, sure, but not difficult.

[KaivaC]

snip

Again, you are taking things to the extreme. Why do you keep on doing this? From a purely casual perspective, how do you justify going from Ala Mhigo to Susano Ex? A lot of us have done this...but regardless of Susano Ex being literally one of the easiest Ex trials (certainly easier than Lakshmi Ex released with him, mostly for tanks), that's still a fairly significant jump in difficulty because casual players need to pay attention so they don't end up killing the entire party. Shinryu is enough of a gate as it is. I don't want to speak for Sebazy, but I believe the point he's getting at, hopefully, is that the prior dungeons leading up to here should've been slowly increasing difficulty, slowly and gradually introducing some of the mechanics you will see in the high end duties.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

except it costs something like 16k to get a set of garo glamour. One set, with something like ten sets that are unique total. And because of that, garo gear is also in the gold saucer, surprise surprise. The original pvp armor only escapes this because after i110, they forced it to all be archetypes instead of jobs with the exception of DRG. If you have 3 or more jobs leveled, we're starting to talk a serious amount of matches.

18K. 19 if the belt counts, and you only need the left side to get a Garo title. Most regular PvPers are almost always sitting on 20K marks with little to spend it on. And no, Garo gear is in the Saucer, undyeable, as a means to still allow the gear to be available to players who don't PvP. It was implemented AS rewards obtainable through PvP, FIRST, per the Garo creator's wishes. i100 and i110 wasn't shared by anyone. Those were the "beast" themed sets, and each job had one. The Heavensward 3 also got their own, largely reskins, but still only for that job. AND all the older sets were cheaper than current ones. That was true even when a body piece cost like 12,800.

As for PvE content, the whole point of a difficulty curve is to ease someone into being ready for later content, which XIV's done a poor job of even since ARR. Crystal Tower was supposed to be a primer for Coil, but they tested it internally, felt it was too hard, and toned it down. . . and people STILL struggled with it at times. Syrcus Tower was such a joke as a result. XIV's problem is indeed that it gets players too used to the comfort zone of being able to faceroll content even at minimum ilvl, then when a real challenge pops up, people are unready and cry for nerfs. I can never forget watching most of my original FC fail Sastasha HM when it was new, and shy away from running it because they couldn't pass the first boss - the first boss that actively engaged all roles in the fight, and in my opinion, the only real challenge of that dungeon. That was an absolute sad sight to see.

[AriaFairchild]

At this point I am convinced that Riyah just want the game to play itself for him...my God, Wolf Marks are just brain-dead easy to get and people are just begging for SE to release some more stuffs for them to spend on, because we are capping them all the time. Like, I had to burn my surplus Marks on sets for jobs I had not even leveled...and now I have to burn them on older sets, even though I don't like the looks on some of them.

[RiyahArp]

Again, you are taking things to the extreme.

Kaiva, what do you think "raising the difficulty curve" means? If you think royal menagerie is easy, the only things harder above it are o1s and susano/lakshimi. O1s and lakshimi are too gimmick laden to be good teaching experiences. If your goal is to raise difficulty to bridge between casual and savage, that 70 trial is going to have to be like an ex trial, with shinryu hard pushed down to about 63, and probably the easier ex trials at 60 taking the place of thordan, right down to 50 ex trials ending the main scenario. You can't raise dungeon difficulty much because you'd massively slow them down, either via trash or bosses, and there's a limit to how hard they can be made when you don't have your full kit. Look at Brayflox hard final boss for an example-the bombs can be really hard for people to deal with if they don't have a point blank circle aoe.

Just annoying, no one ever really thinks about what changes actually mean for players in real practice.

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At this point I am convinced that Riyah just want the game to play itself for him...my God, Wolf Marks are just brain-dead easy to get and people are just begging for SE to release some more stuffs for them to spend on, because we are capping them all the time. Like, I had to burn my surplus Marks on sets for jobs I had not even leveled...and now I have to burn them on older sets, even though I don't like the looks on some of them.

I have every single piece of garo gear available, and I had them when you could use them as leveling gear. I have all that I want from it save for mounts or minions, and that's because those take on average 200-300 matches played to get one.

My point was that if you wanted to gear up your jobs, and you had more than one of them (i have every single one at 60, and all but two at 70) and you dislike pvp, its a lot more time. Its adds up fast, and most people who think its easy just play an awful lot because they like the mode. its not "oh its only 4k wolf marks" for some people, it can be 144,000 for all that they want. Then there are the minions, the orchestrion roles, etc.

[Squintina]

there is no difficulty curve in this game. at expert level you can just ignore so much of it. yojimbo in kugane castle. you can literally stand there go make a coffee while you let daigoro get ALL THE GOLD. and you still will NOT die. It's essentially impossible to fail that mechanic.

I don't know about that, that seems to be an exaggeration.

While I will agree that the increase to savage might be way too much compared to normal, the idea that somehow Extreme is the same difficulty as Tam Tara is just ludicrous. Maybe you're that good that you feel that way, but not everyone is you. Why just yesterday I watched (I wasn't in there, I was literally watching someone else play) a group wipe multiple times on Limitless Blue (Hard, not even Extreme) because of not tanking properly, not damaging properly, and not dodging properly. Had that group done Extreme, there is no way it would have eventually be beaten, but I'm pretty sure any of them could handle Tam Tara.

I'll agree that the difficulty jumps for savage, but let's not go crazy and pretend like it's all the same until then.

Back on topic, The hate is just because some people are just not as good. Some of those people will welcome it and try to get better, others won't and will ask for nerfs and call people who disagree with them elitist and act like you need to treat the game "like a job" to get to be good (No you don't. You might need that to be "world first" good, but not just "good" in general).

Some people also blame the toxic community (which is only a small % of the community, it just feels like it's more for those who are unfortunate enough to encounter it because of how bad it feels), but if that's the case then it wouldn't just be about endgame. I've seen people be jerks in low level content, even as low as guildhests (My first ever received "git gud" was when I was trying to tank in a guildhest. ). Jerks will be jerks whenever they can.