Tanks and super pulls

[NephthysVasudan]

I know the following about you by your own admission:

You assume that healers just spam cure 2
You assume everything said in the party is a waste of time and not worth your time

Conclusion - I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you.

[winsock]

I know the following about you by your own admission:

You assume that healers just spam cure 2
You assume everything said in the party is a waste of time and not worth your time

Conclusion - I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you.

You don't trust any random tanks. You said you no longer PUG.

I assume the healer is capable of *at least* cure II spam.
Asking the healer about about pull size is a waste of time because it provides no valuable information.

Explain what value I could get from asking the healer about pull size. You say it's beneficial, I'm just asking you to back up your claim.

[Squintina]

I think communication is good

I'm not sure though which is better: the tank to ask the healer if they can, or the healer to tell a tank if they can't.

The first one seems like much because that means every tank who wants to superpull would need to ask at the beginning of every dungeon and it puts the healer in the spotlight to determine right there and then an expectation for the whole party to have of them, whereas the second one means only those healers who definitely aren't comfortable with it have to communicate (maybe they're new to healing, or new to that instance, maybe they know their gear isn't good enough, etc..). If it's the second one, it'd be nice if the tank would acknowledge that the request was read (and if it will be followed).

I do think tanks need to also account for their own gear. No super pulls if you're not well geared for the instance you are doing please, and that shouldn't need any communication - it should just be automatic.

[VanilleFang]

Okay so there's a bit I need/want to reply to here and I'm on my phone so bear with me!

Kugane

Which pull are you talking about here specifically? The last stretch before Yojimbo? I don't really know what to say. It takes good spell and ability usage to heal through a pull like that, as well as a tank who knows how to use CDs. Things like HG and Holy can make it a bit easier.

* a wipe occurs *

I'll be a little blunt here. Any here who ends up leaving because they said that big pulls were okay and the party wipes is not worth their salt as a healer.
If the wipe was the healer's fault then they should apologize. I personally will tell me team "my b. I was slow with x" or "Oh sorry. My fault. I guess I wasn't ready." I will then either tell them to try again if they want or they can pull slower. If it wasn't the healer's fault (tank cleaved party/DPS is super low/tank doesn't use cds/etc) then they shouldn't feel any guilt at all. In those situations I either say "I don't know what happened" or "our DPS is a little low maybe we should try pulling smaller". Maybe it's just me but having a tough skin (especially as healer and tank) is almost a requirement.

i can confirm this question can lead to problems.

Personal anecdotes aren't really confirmation. It may happen but it's not a guarantee nor does it make that outcome the norm. I understand what you are saying but I've had entirely different experiences as a healer.

1 button

That's assuming the dps is up to snuff. Cure II spam is fine but it's not very MP efficient. I know healers don't really need to worry too much about MP end game but if DPS is crazy low Cure II spam could cause some issues with MP. And if DPS is low and the healer can't help with killing things than the big pull was pointless.

trust tank

I'm under the assumption if they are asking than they know what they are doing. If they don't then they shouldn't be asking. It's a partnership between healers and tanks. If one can't hold up their side of the partnership than it won't work. That's why I think it should be agreed with between both the tank and healer (though I am the type to assume that big pulls are the default). It's presumptuous to think it's just the tank that determines the success of a pull. I've personally healed through pulls where the tank was basically a fish out of water.

inexperienced healer?

I'm not? I'm saying that if the tank doesn't know the healer has no experience and they pull big because of the assumption that they can "push 1 button" and things go to hell it could possibly turn out the same how you described in your original post, or worse. If they were to ask before the pull they could have avoided the wipe if the healer replies with "no". Like I said, it's a partnership.

[winsock]

It's a partnership between healers and tanks. If one can't hold up their side of the partnership than it won't work. [snip] I've personally healed through pulls where the tank was basically a fish out of water.

I agree it is a partnership, but you've got to take it a step further:
How does the tank asking this question better the partnership? I dont believe it does.

Suppose a tank asks a healer if large pulls are okay, one of the following may happen:
A) The healer says "yes" knowing that the dungeon is easy enough to heal through even if the tank is a "fish out of water"
B) The healer says "yes" assuming the tank knows their fundamentals
C) The healer says "no" because they are not confident in the tank
D) The healer says "no" because they themselves are inexperienced

Now consider the above points from the perspective of a tank:
A) The question provides no value in this scenario. The outcome will be the same.
B) The question provides no value in this scenario if the tank knows their fundamentals.
C) The question provides a negative value in this scenario if the tank knows their fundamentals.
D) This healer realistically doesnt know what the hps checks will actually be like, so it's not a good idea to have them make the call. In addition, this healer is likely able to spam cure II at a minimum / can be easily mentored into an acceptable level of hps.

Perhaps there are some scenarios that i've missed, but i dont see the value here.
If I know that I know how to handle a large pull, there is no reason for me to ask as far as I can tell.

[Wintersandman]

D) This healer realistically doesnt know what the hps checks will actually be like, so it's not a good idea to have them make the call. In addition, this healer is likely able to spam cure II at a minimum / can be easily mentored into an acceptable level of hps.

Or the healer is just flat out under geared for the content and thus can't keep the tank up. Cure II spam only goes so far. So does mana, if the healer can barely keep up the tank with Cure II spam and burn through their mana the super pull was pointless as you will be waiting for mana to refresh in between pulls.

[BoazJochin]

Ignore everyone. As a tank, YOU are responsible for gauging how well the DPS is clearing the trash and determining the pace of the run. If they make you think, "hmm that went decently quick", then consider pulling bigger with subsequent trash. Don't need to waste their time if they are tearing through mobs like paper mache.

If they are slow to average, don't pull big. Let them suffer until they get their shit together.

This is how I do it, I also found tanking with a pld is way different than with a war. With a war I can pull bigger, however my healer has to be top notch for that, I can have a crappy healer as a pld and be ok, but that can’t happen as a war due the the class mechanics.

[VanilleFang]

snip.

You don't find the question has value, which is fine. If you don't want to ask you don't have to. All I was saying is that it's a courtesy and to assume it will more likely than not turn out bad is a very strange mind set. That's the only point I was really trying to make. Communication is a good thing, but it's not required to clear dungeons. It's just weird to discourage communication all together.

[winsock]

Or the healer is just flat out under geared for the content and thus can't keep the tank up. Cure II spam only goes so far. So does mana, if the healer can barely keep up the tank with Cure II spam and burn through their mana the super pull was pointless as you will be waiting for mana to refresh in between pulls.

I can see the healer's gear and mp, so i dont need to ask them about that.
If they cant keep the tank alive w/ cure II spam, it's probably the tank's fault for not using appropriate cooldowns or pulling too much (although, in some rarer cases the dps would be to blame)

MP isnt normally an issue. The cool part about large pulls is that the healer can stay out of combat while traveling. you dont need to wait in between. The travel time of the pull + their out of combat MP restores it, so you are typically okay long as they dont do something silly like regen during the pull. Also, while the rate of healing needed is higher on large pulls, the total amount they actually need to heal during a larger pull is typically significantly less than the same number of mobs spread over a series of smaller pulls.

Communication is a good thing, but it's not required to clear dungeons. It's just weird to discourage communication all together.

Again, no qualms with communication in general. My issue is with that specific question. It can cause a variety of issues and provides no real benefit.

[Wintersandman]

MP isnt normally an issue. The cool part about large pulls is that the healer can stay out of combat while traveling. you dont need to wait in between. The travel time of the pull + their out of combat MP restores it, so you are typically okay long as they dont do something silly like regen during the pull. Also, while the rate of healing needed is higher on large pulls, the total amount they actually need to heal during a larger pull is typically significantly less than the same number of mobs spread over a series of smaller pulls.

It doesn't work that way sometimes sadly because the healer sometimes has to heal the tank during the pull. Also you pay attention to Healer's MP/Gear. Not everyone does and frankly if the healer doesn't feel confident in their skills then don't force the issue by just doing what you want.