SE: if it aint broke, dont fix it (War)

[Tegernako]

So what I mean is that unchained works by buffing the damage output of warrior by 25% to ignore the tank stance penalty, unless a move already ignores the tank stance penalty like inner beast.

Upheaval gains a damage boost from defiance, as it should, and it ignores the tank stance penalty. Unchained should not modify its damage further. However, this is not the case, if you pop unchained and use upheaval you will do more damage than if you just used it in tank stance without unchained. That is what I mean by double dipping.

Huh, interesting.

[Chrono_Rising]

Just for reference:
Defiance at max HP no other HP modifiers active: Upheaval does 6131 damage
Defiance at max HP and unchained, no other modifiers: Upheaval does 7581 damage

All of that is according to my in game battle log. There is natural variation in the moves, neither were crit or direct hit, but 1400 damage (nearly 25%) variation is pretty large. Given that you can repeat this with unchained every time I believe the only conclusion is that upheaval somehow is double dipping on the unchained and ignore tank stance features.

Some what amusingly you can buff Fell cleave up to 901 potency with all the buffs. You can buff Upheavel up to 965.25 potency if the unchained thing continues to exist lol.

[RamzaRuglia]

So what I mean is that unchained works by buffing the damage output of warrior by 25% to ignore the tank stance penalty, unless a move already ignores the tank stance penalty like inner beast.

Upheaval gains a damage boost from defiance, as it should, and it ignores the tank stance penalty. Unchained should not modify its damage further. However, this is not the case, if you pop unchained and use upheaval you will do more damage than if you just used it in tank stance without unchained. That is what I mean by double dipping.

No, that isn't how Defiance works. Defiance reduces damage by 20% while increasing HP by 25%.

Unchained, nullifies the 20% damage reduction.

Upheaval does MORE damage in tank stance because you have more HP, because damage scales off of HP.

EDIT: ~25% Damage boost, 25% HP increase in Defiance. It's not double dipping, it's doing exactly what it should be doing.

[shao32]

snip.

what he is saying is upheaval is afected by the damage penalty of defiance, and on top of that recive the bonus of the 25% of extra vit, with result that unchained buff upheaval when is used raising the damage of the skill even further.

[RamzaRuglia]

what he is saying is upheaval is afected by the damage penalty of defiance, and on top of that recive the bonus of the 25% of extra vit, with result that unchained buff upheaval when is used raising the damage of the skill even further.

Which is how the skill should work. It's a skill you get once every 30 seconds, which makes it rather baffling that it is an issue being raised at all.

[Chrono_Rising]

No, that isn't how Defiance works. Defiance reduces damage by 20% while increasing HP by 25%.

Unchained, nullifies the 20% damage reduction.

Upheaval does MORE damage in tank stance because you have more HP, because damage scales off of HP.

EDIT: ~25% Damage boost, 25% HP increase in Defiance. It's not double dipping, it's doing exactly what it should be doing.

Which is how the skill should work. It's a skill you get once every 30 seconds, which makes it rather baffling that it is an issue being raised at all.

No, you are missing the point. It "ignores" the stance penalty but it depends on how that is done. I propose that the when unchained is active it boosts your damage by 25% which cancles the 20% reduction penalty exactly. The exact how it does the "ignoring" is one question, but that it shouldn't have an effect on upheaval is not a question because the skill already ignores the damage penalty. Things like Inner Beast also ignore the damage penalty and do not get boosted by unchained. Examples:

Just for reference:
Defiance at max HP no other HP modifiers active: Upheaval does 6131 damage

Upheaval already ignores the damage penalty. If I use the skill with unchained then I shouldn't see any change in the damage..... However:

Defiance at max HP and unchained, no other modifiers: Upheaval does 7581 damage

These two cases both use defiance, that variable has been controlled for, but one of them uses unchained. In the unchained example the damage should be within a natural variation of skill, but it isn't its 25% stronger for no apparent reason. This is on top the the defiance bonus since I'm in the same stance in both cases.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)
Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)
Unchained damage: 7600 (roughly)

The skill is already ignoring the damage penalty, otherwise the deliverance and defiance damage would be about the same. They are not, which shows that the damage penalty is being ignored and the HP enhancing nature of deliverance is boosting the upheaval damage. The big question is: Why is the unchained damage higher? This isn't a fluke you can repeat it yourself, this has no buffs other than stances in all three examples. I was also careful to not record examples of direct hit or critical strikes. The only explanation I can come up with is that upheaval's damage is being increased by unchained when it shouldn't be.

[RamzaRuglia]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

Deliverance HP: 50,660
Defiance HP: 63,325

Deliverance + Upheaval: 4,723
Defiance + Upheaval: 5,956
Defiance + Unchained + Upheaval: 6,330

Deliverance + Thrill of Battle HP: 60,792
Deliverance + Upheaval: 5,385

Defiance + Thrill of Battle HP: 75,990
Defiance + Upheaval: 8,181
Defiance + Unchained + Upheaval: 9,763

[Chrono_Rising]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

Ok perhaps I'm reading the wrong tool tip. I am under the impression that it ignores the stance penalty, perhaps I should try to justify that instead.

I would think that used with the tank stance you would do 1.25 times its damage for the HP scaling. Without the ignoring the damage penalty I would think it would do .8 of that value which would be nearly the same in both stances. However, that clearly isn't the case so one of my assumptions is wrong.

I'm guessing it doesn't scale linearly with your maximum HP then?

[Wintersandman]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

You aren't reading his posts.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)

Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)

Unchained + Defiance damage: 7600 (roughly)

[RamzaRuglia]

You aren't reading his posts.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)

Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)

Unchained + Defiance damage: 7600 (roughly)

I am reading his posts. You're literally repeating what I said. You should be doing more damage with Upheaval in Defiance with Unchained. That is how Unchained works! That is literally the whole point of the skill.