SE: if it aint broke, dont fix it (War)

[RamzaRuglia]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

Deliverance HP: 50,660
Defiance HP: 63,325

Deliverance + Upheaval: 4,723
Defiance + Upheaval: 5,956
Defiance + Unchained + Upheaval: 6,330

Deliverance + Thrill of Battle HP: 60,792
Deliverance + Upheaval: 5,385

Defiance + Thrill of Battle HP: 75,990
Defiance + Upheaval: 8,181
Defiance + Unchained + Upheaval: 9,763

[Chrono_Rising]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

Ok perhaps I'm reading the wrong tool tip. I am under the impression that it ignores the stance penalty, perhaps I should try to justify that instead.

I would think that used with the tank stance you would do 1.25 times its damage for the HP scaling. Without the ignoring the damage penalty I would think it would do .8 of that value which would be nearly the same in both stances. However, that clearly isn't the case so one of my assumptions is wrong.

I'm guessing it doesn't scale linearly with your maximum HP then?

[Wintersandman]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

You aren't reading his posts.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)

Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)

Unchained + Defiance damage: 7600 (roughly)

[RamzaRuglia]

You aren't reading his posts.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)

Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)

Unchained + Defiance damage: 7600 (roughly)

I am reading his posts. You're literally repeating what I said. You should be doing more damage with Upheaval in Defiance with Unchained. That is how Unchained works! That is literally the whole point of the skill.

[Wintersandman]

You should be doing more damage with Upheaval in Defiance with Unchained.

Unchained =
Nullifies the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.
Duration: 20s
Can only be executed while under the effect of Defiance.
Effect is canceled if Defiance ends.
Shares a recast timer with Inner Release.

Upheaval = https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Upheaval
Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
Potency decreases as own HP decreases.
Potency also affected by maximum HP-increasing effects granted to self.
Beast Gauge Cost: 20
Can only be executed while under the effect of Defiance or Deliverance.
Ignores the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.

Upheaval already ignores the damage penalty so it is essentially double dipping. Which Inner Beast does not do.

Upheaval has an old tooltip on Gamerscape................... Which is why Chrono and I were both interpreting it incorrectly.

[Chrono_Rising]

Unchained =
Nullifies the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.
Duration: 20s
Can only be executed while under the effect of Defiance.
Effect is canceled if Defiance ends.
Shares a recast timer with Inner Release.

Upheaval =
Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
Potency decreases as own HP decreases.
Potency also affected by maximum HP-increasing effects granted to self.
Beast Gauge Cost: 20
Can only be executed while under the effect of Defiance or Deliverance.
Ignores the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.

Upheaval already ignores the damage penalty so it is essentially double dipping. Which Inner Beast does not do.

I see you included link disregard.

(See I thought I saw that too, but I cannot find that tool tip in game (specifically the part about ignoring the damage penalty). Where did you get this from?)

I think this raises the question of how upheaval is actually calculating its damage because something seems weird about the damage gains between thrill of battle and deliverance.

[Wintersandman]

See I thought I saw that too, but I cannot find that tool tip in game (specifically the part about ignoring the damage penalty). Where did you get this from?

I edited my post above. I pulled up the ffxiv guide and it had it differently from gamerscape. Which probably also changed it in game during 4.05 warrior changes.

[Chrono_Rising]

I edited my post above. I pulled up the ffxiv guide and it had it differently from gamerscape. Which probably also changed it in game during 4.05 warrior changes.

I agree but I still think something is fishy with the way its calculating its damage gains somewhere.

If it raised your damage on the skill by 25% then I would expect that the damage reduction from tank stance would make the skill be exactly where it was (1.25*.8=1), I would also expect thrill of battle to roughly emulate the dps gain that deliverance does (since there is only a 5% difference in the HP raising effects between those skills). But neither of those things are true. Which leads me to wonder what the game is actually doing to calculate the HP bonus from those skills.

[RamzaRuglia]

I edited my post above. I pulled up the ffxiv guide and it had it differently from gamerscape. Which probably also changed it in game during 4.05 warrior changes.

The description was actually edited in Patch 4.1: See Notes

When it was actually changed, who knows, as the notes just say it was fixing an incorrect description, and nothing was mentioned in 4.05 notes.

EDIT: Beat me to the link.

[Chrono_Rising]

You aren't reading his posts.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)

Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)

Unchained + Defiance damage: 7600 (roughly)

So does anyone have a way that the damage from upheaval is actually calculated? I agree that upheaval tool tip gives no indication that it ignores the stance penalty of deliverance, but clearly 25% more hp isn't being translated to 25% more damage. Does anyone know how the hp buff is actually calculated?

I am reading his posts. You're literally repeating what I said. You should be doing more damage with Upheaval in Defiance with Unchained. That is how Unchained works! That is literally the whole point of the skill.

Yes, I agree, it was confusing with you responding to questioning an HP increasing effect that I wasn't questioning, so I believe time was wasted in trying to understand where your posts were coming from. The issue was me reading in a damage ignoring penalty that wasn't there, and I got that from your post. I agree the tool tip doesn't say anything about ignoring the damage penalty.

I'm interested in how exactly the HP increase translates to a damage increase now. If I increase my max HP by 25% with deliverance upheaval is increasing its damage by about 50%. If this is with tank stance that means the increase for a 25% HP increase is in the realm of 90% damage. Does anyone know how this is scaling or why it is so high?