SE: if it aint broke, dont fix it (War)

[shao32]

snip.

what he is saying is upheaval is afected by the damage penalty of defiance, and on top of that recive the bonus of the 25% of extra vit, with result that unchained buff upheaval when is used raising the damage of the skill even further.

[RamzaRuglia]

what he is saying is upheaval is afected by the damage penalty of defiance, and on top of that recive the bonus of the 25% of extra vit, with result that unchained buff upheaval when is used raising the damage of the skill even further.

Which is how the skill should work. It's a skill you get once every 30 seconds, which makes it rather baffling that it is an issue being raised at all.

[Chrono_Rising]

No, that isn't how Defiance works. Defiance reduces damage by 20% while increasing HP by 25%.

Unchained, nullifies the 20% damage reduction.

Upheaval does MORE damage in tank stance because you have more HP, because damage scales off of HP.

EDIT: ~25% Damage boost, 25% HP increase in Defiance. It's not double dipping, it's doing exactly what it should be doing.

Which is how the skill should work. It's a skill you get once every 30 seconds, which makes it rather baffling that it is an issue being raised at all.

No, you are missing the point. It "ignores" the stance penalty but it depends on how that is done. I propose that the when unchained is active it boosts your damage by 25% which cancles the 20% reduction penalty exactly. The exact how it does the "ignoring" is one question, but that it shouldn't have an effect on upheaval is not a question because the skill already ignores the damage penalty. Things like Inner Beast also ignore the damage penalty and do not get boosted by unchained. Examples:

Just for reference:
Defiance at max HP no other HP modifiers active: Upheaval does 6131 damage

Upheaval already ignores the damage penalty. If I use the skill with unchained then I shouldn't see any change in the damage..... However:

Defiance at max HP and unchained, no other modifiers: Upheaval does 7581 damage

These two cases both use defiance, that variable has been controlled for, but one of them uses unchained. In the unchained example the damage should be within a natural variation of skill, but it isn't its 25% stronger for no apparent reason. This is on top the the defiance bonus since I'm in the same stance in both cases.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)
Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)
Unchained damage: 7600 (roughly)

The skill is already ignoring the damage penalty, otherwise the deliverance and defiance damage would be about the same. They are not, which shows that the damage penalty is being ignored and the HP enhancing nature of deliverance is boosting the upheaval damage. The big question is: Why is the unchained damage higher? This isn't a fluke you can repeat it yourself, this has no buffs other than stances in all three examples. I was also careful to not record examples of direct hit or critical strikes. The only explanation I can come up with is that upheaval's damage is being increased by unchained when it shouldn't be.

[RamzaRuglia]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

Deliverance HP: 50,660
Defiance HP: 63,325

Deliverance + Upheaval: 4,723
Defiance + Upheaval: 5,956
Defiance + Unchained + Upheaval: 6,330

Deliverance + Thrill of Battle HP: 60,792
Deliverance + Upheaval: 5,385

Defiance + Thrill of Battle HP: 75,990
Defiance + Upheaval: 8,181
Defiance + Unchained + Upheaval: 9,763

[Chrono_Rising]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

Ok perhaps I'm reading the wrong tool tip. I am under the impression that it ignores the stance penalty, perhaps I should try to justify that instead.

I would think that used with the tank stance you would do 1.25 times its damage for the HP scaling. Without the ignoring the damage penalty I would think it would do .8 of that value which would be nearly the same in both stances. However, that clearly isn't the case so one of my assumptions is wrong.

I'm guessing it doesn't scale linearly with your maximum HP then?

[Wintersandman]

It is not ignoring the stance penalty. You have more HP in Defiance, and Upheaval scales off of HP.

Unchained simply removes the reduction from the stance. If you use Thrill of Battle before you pop Upheaval, you do more damage that way too.

You are totally ignoring how Upheaval works. Defiance is more HP, more HP equals more damage. So, of course, you do less damage in Deliverance, you've lost 25% of your HP.

You aren't reading his posts.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)

Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)

Unchained + Defiance damage: 7600 (roughly)

[RamzaRuglia]

You aren't reading his posts.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)

Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)

Unchained + Defiance damage: 7600 (roughly)

I am reading his posts. You're literally repeating what I said. You should be doing more damage with Upheaval in Defiance with Unchained. That is how Unchained works! That is literally the whole point of the skill.

[Wintersandman]

You should be doing more damage with Upheaval in Defiance with Unchained.

Unchained =
Nullifies the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.
Duration: 20s
Can only be executed while under the effect of Defiance.
Effect is canceled if Defiance ends.
Shares a recast timer with Inner Release.

Upheaval = https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Upheaval
Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
Potency decreases as own HP decreases.
Potency also affected by maximum HP-increasing effects granted to self.
Beast Gauge Cost: 20
Can only be executed while under the effect of Defiance or Deliverance.
Ignores the damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.

Upheaval already ignores the damage penalty so it is essentially double dipping. Which Inner Beast does not do.

Upheaval has an old tooltip on Gamerscape................... Which is why Chrono and I were both interpreting it incorrectly.

[Chrono_Rising]

You aren't reading his posts.

To be clear for Upheaval:
Deliverance Damage: 4000 (roughly)

Defiance damage: 6100 (roughly)

Unchained + Defiance damage: 7600 (roughly)

So does anyone have a way that the damage from upheaval is actually calculated? I agree that upheaval tool tip gives no indication that it ignores the stance penalty of deliverance, but clearly 25% more hp isn't being translated to 25% more damage. Does anyone know how the hp buff is actually calculated?

I am reading his posts. You're literally repeating what I said. You should be doing more damage with Upheaval in Defiance with Unchained. That is how Unchained works! That is literally the whole point of the skill.

Yes, I agree, it was confusing with you responding to questioning an HP increasing effect that I wasn't questioning, so I believe time was wasted in trying to understand where your posts were coming from. The issue was me reading in a damage ignoring penalty that wasn't there, and I got that from your post. I agree the tool tip doesn't say anything about ignoring the damage penalty.

I'm interested in how exactly the HP increase translates to a damage increase now. If I increase my max HP by 25% with deliverance upheaval is increasing its damage by about 50%. If this is with tank stance that means the increase for a 25% HP increase is in the realm of 90% damage. Does anyone know how this is scaling or why it is so high?

[RamzaRuglia]

So does anyone have a way that the damage from upheaval is actually calculated? I agree that upheaval tool tip gives no indication that it ignores the stance penalty of deliverance, but clearly 25% more hp isn't being translated to 25% more damage. Does anyone know how the hp buff is actually calculated?

I posted the averages in a previous post, but other than doing the math in reverse to see, it's hard to tell without SE making it obvious in the tooltip. That's why I added in Thrill of Battle as an additional control to see if there were extra numbers to pull from.