Open world PvP Zone

[Kisagami]

Actually it was more to illustrate that you had a choice. You made it sound like this horrible inconvenience and really it was all a choice and in reality every class that you mentioned were the strongest in a PvP setting especially against that sneaky rogue. A frost mage could kite a rogue for days. A priest using Psychic Scream would have seen the rogue and could have mind flayed him before he ever came back. You could have overcome every situation but from your post you made a clear choice to not adapt.

Why should she be forced to adapt to participate in something she didn’t want to!? This is what you don’t get. We don’t want to adapt just to survive in an area because some jerk wants to kill other players. We don’t want to PVP. You keep ensuring me “oh it won’t be like that.” Then turn around and have no mercy for those who give evidence of why they don’t want it to be like the example.

Besides, clearly queue times for PVP would be a lot better if there was enough of an interest in it, right? Oh. Yeah. Think my empathy is waning too. If I wanted PVP, and if others wanted a PVP focus game, they’d choose one. I don’t go into your PVP focused game and demand it be changed with something that will drastically change the community. PVP, in my opinion, is too toxic when left unchecked. Runescape. Archeage. World of Warcraft. Black Desert Online. Overwatch. All games I eventually left behind because I got tired of the toxic player base and their lack of empathy for those who are not competitive. I’m not. Don’t want to adapt or change just to survive or be relevant in the game.

So, end of story, no, I don’t want an open world PVP zone and will continue to adamantly argue against it. You’re just reaffirming what I already know. The only game I felt who got PVP right is Tera. I like the current set up - set objectives and fair teams. That’s the type of PVP I want to be involve in, where I have an equal chance as anyone else. Not open world like you all are proposing.

This thread: Go and tell everyone oh PVP like we’re asking for is not so bad then scoff at someone who said it was such a pain in the ass not to get flagged in similar opt-in areas in other games. Ugh.

[Fannah]

An open world PvP zone with nothing mandatory is not a problem in itself. How can you argue about something asked to be just in one zone (not the overall game) no one has to go in with no meaningful rewards other than glamour?

PS : I'm not for overall open world pvp and I agree there is always people enjoying the toxic way of playing there. But I don't get you can be against just a small zone with nothing asking you to go in other than having a glamour/title (or else) showing you've been successful there.

[Kisagami]

An open world PvP zone with nothing mandatory is not a problem in itself. How can you argue about something asked to be just in one zone (not the overall game) no one has to go in with no meaningful rewards other than glamour?

PS : I'm not for overall open world pvp and I agree there is always people enjoying the toxic way of playing there. But I don't get you can be against just a small zone with nothing asking you to go in other than having a glamour/title (or else) showing you've been successful there.

If you go back in the last 21 pages of this thread, they went from “give us a <kind of> unpopulated PVE zone” (thus meaning new players would still have to do those quests there once to complete the game), to “just an opt-in area” to “an instance” to an area with fates and crafting zones... so yeah... there’s no consistency as to what it is. I’ve given examples I support - and have contributed to this thread plenty. But mainly they keep arguing it won’t affect PVE players at all to this current place, while disregarding my counter arguments.

[Fannah]

Yea, it's complicated when the topic changes so much as it's a discussed idea overall as it's not existing. I read the 1rst pages and can't remember we would have real PvE quests, but nevermind, I agree from beginning it has to not have PvE NPC giving quests in unsafe areas. Especially that it's not the spirit if FF at all.

And about those thinking there will be nothing toxic... welcome to the real world. It's not just "Kisagami's experience" nor only mine. There always will be some people to abuse a system when they technically can do it. It doesn't have to be a majority, but even a group of just 4 people, even just one player good at dueling who wanna have fun this way can be highly toxic.

[RiyahArp]

OMG another person who knows what Ballista is. An Optional open world PvP mode that had no impact on PvE players but people fail to even research it who are opposed to Open World PvP because their only taste is free for all and they have closed the doors, barred the hatches, and are hunkered down.

Ballista was not open world pvp. I did it on Siren when it first came out, it essentially was the same as seal rock, except FFXI had no duty finder. They scheduled matches at set times across three zones, and if there weren't enough people playing (and there often wasn't) the matches were canceled till the next timer. Ballista was heavily rule-based, with no free-form option at all, and it was just as unpopular in FFXI as PvP is here. Towards the end, so many matches were just canceled because they couldn't get enough people to report to the pvp NPC to even start it, and the fee you paid would be refunded.

And geez, you guys whine about healers in RW, you would have loved how useless or balanced certain jobs were in that. FFXI Red Mage is like FFXIV WHM on Steroids.

I kept my mouth shut on it earlier, but the fundamental flaw in the reasoning mentioned prior is that no one going into a PvP ANYTHING considers themselves "prey". That very idea is weak and unhelpful in the sense of wanting to compete or simply fight against other players. Sure, some people might be looking for easy targets, and while that's their preference, it's pathetic. Most PvPers however, simply enjoy the challenge of competition, and when there's no challenge, there's no enjoyment. Just look at all the dry ass "expert" content people are so enthusiastic about right now, right?

That said, please stop painting this broad narrative of "everyone just wants to gank you there". If I know you and we're not actively competing, I'd be just as likely to stop and talk as I would defend myself viciously if you attacked. Of course, I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure PvPers who want open world anything aren't just looking for easy targets. We've got plenty of PvE stuff for that.

Dude, no offense but you have a very idiosyncratic idea of what open world pvp is or what players tend to do in it, as well as the mindset of many pvpers. You assume everyone really likes balanced competition, when a lot of people given the chance would blob up for easy wins, and many would do worse.

Like when I played Aion, they had rifts, which let one faction's below-level cap players rift into the other side for pvp raids. What happened was soon people made lowbie alts specifically designed to gank players that actually wound up being tougher to kill than many capped people, and that was one of the reasons Aion declined; players literally ganked the leveling population away from the game. In EVE, when I played they had Hulkageddon in which teh objective was...to abuse CONCORD limitations by suicide killing defenseless mining ships in protected space. The Hulk mining ship literally had the same defensive firepower as a frigate with less manueverability. I remember being chain-camped in mabinogi because the only way you could turn your flag off was by not being dead, so people would kill you faster than you can turn it off. And the power creep in there didnt mean you had balanced fights, you had people that were literally unkillable.

And the prey thing...look, it is very much hunter and hunted in open world. What you want is the wolfs den duels with no restrictions, and that doesn't really happen much in true open world. Even in EVE, you got ganked just as much by the Militia or newbie EVE University looking for easy kills in between their scheduled battles (which happened kind of rarely.)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

The ideas changed in an effort to try and compromise. But it seems like there's no compromise at all unless people who wouldn't even be interested in going into a PvP zone can ensure it's a completely dead on arrival zone that ONLY allows for what it's intended, is SO separated and walled off from anything else it might as well be on the moon, and nothing more. At all. Ever. And all this based on fear and past experience in other games.

What was it someone said before? "I don't like this, so no one should have it."

[RiyahArp]

I feel like people are kind of taking the prey comment too hard.

When I wrote that, it was in a game design sense. In open world pvp, one of the biggest problems is actually getting people to try it. Players are surprisingly risk averse, even when loss is trivial; you can PvP in EVE without losing much of anything due to insurance and the relative cheapness of low level ships, which are viable in their roles through the whole game. But the shock of being killed unfairly is pretty harsh for a lot of people, and thats why most people in EVE never leave concord space and have to be forced to pvp through Wardecs, despite having some of the best player-driven resources in the game for mentorship and conflict.

So you need incentives to get people to overcome that sense of risk, and its pretty decent risk in a psychic sense. There's already a player-driven "predator" model which gets rid of the risk by, well, blobbing and ganking; that is, using advantage in numbers to reduce risk. The dev stuff that they do is a "prey" model, in which it helps people who don't blob and gank enjoy the mode. I don't mean every pvp player in the open world is a villain or a rabbit, but you kind of need prey measures to counteract predator stuff. If its just pure pvp, the only response is to get more numbers than people or run.

The context I wrote it was mostly about having the wolf's den model of an open pvp zone, just with no restrictions. I don't mean we'd get forced pve to draw pvers in as unwilling targets. Though if anything many pvers became pvpers in eve because they risked going into lowsec to get precious ores to ferry back to sell.

The ideas changed in an effort to try and compromise. But it seems like there's no compromise at all unless people who wouldn't even be interested in going into a PvP zone can ensure it's a completely dead on arrival zone that ONLY allows for what it's intended, is SO separated and walled off from anything else it might as well be on the moon, and nothing more. At all. Ever. And all this based on fear and past experience in other games.

What was it someone said before? "I don't like this, so no one should have it."

im perfectly ok if they have it. I just dont want it to wind up unpopulated. Im not saying this to argue against it, but its nice if we get some ideas out first so we can decide what kind of open world pvp we want, and understand the dangers of that mode.

[Wyvernheart]

Kisagami is just a guy who doesnt want others to have their fun. We have all put out ideas that void his concerns yet in the end he just wants to hate on anyone different. These zones wouldnt even be connected. To go there you most pick the zone like in crowded server times when they make zone 1 and zone 2 and so on. Yet he would somehow accidently zone there to be mugged by people when you cant even get loot off a player. Just a nay sayer i say.

[Bahati]

I would at least try an open world PVP area but knowing our player base.... I can already see the crying about unfairness. Halone forbid there be any reward or minion for playing in the open world PVP zone. People can't handle having to grin and bear it to get items they like or they have to live without it.

[Wyvernheart]

Sad thing is, it isn't about the items most of the time. We just want this thing, each for our own reasons. We do not seek to disturb others, but to have a place that we can go to play this mmo how we wish to. We can have mobs and nodes and pvp fates to! Make this area totally separate from the regular server and make it a cross world. This way you have to que into the cross-world pvp zone. Boom. No problems.