A Skipping Normal Raid Option :o ?!

[Aylis]

Ye after 3 or more years for some players of having cleared every content of the game, they need to test my skill again in a dumbed down normal mode?pls..
In the old days during coil you had the option to play normal or savage, while getting the same rewards, it unlocked all together. I don't want the same rewards now, but they could have kept that way for unlock. There was no test.

This game, or any other game for that matter isn't just about you. If the top tier world first players don't get a pass, why do you feel you should?

[LeeraSorlan]

Normal is not a gate, my dudes, requiring normal or not requiring normal will literally net you the same amount and type of players in your savage parties.Normal is easy, normal can be done with less than 8 people, meaning if a truly bad player that seriously is unable to do normal mechanics ques enough times, eventually, they will clear. which gives them access to savage. so its an entirely irrelevant point to make.


Most people here are either missing the point, or making a very bad excuse to the point.


The point is spoilers, thats it. V1S is literally V1 normal except with like..1 or 2 new mechanics and a different pattern. V2S is pretty much V2N with the mechanics being changed a bit and one or two new mechanics. V3S is different in alot of ways, but the core mechanics are still present.


It doesnt feel as exciting to do these bosses again when you see the same animations, the same arenas, the same style. Seeing Teraflare in T13 was monumental, one of my favourite moments in this game, it would have been so much less impressive if i had seen it in a T13 normal faceroll version of the fight. and so on

[Commander_Justitia]

We all know the reason this is a bad idea is because people who don't belong in savage will attempt it, then complain about how everything is so hard and should be nerfed.

And we would have to deal with them

Raiders have statics. Your situation only exist for players who don't have one and why would anybody value a partyfinder experience for the first turn in the first weeks? They can't jump in later turns like now with delta, as it is locked.

I can remember some people being mad that neo wasn't in normal mode, the phase transition would have been something really boring to us seeing it the first time in savage then too. Would have been way less hype on streams and less entertaining
Trying savage should us reward with a better fight/boss gameplay/design -
wise, as we don't get that in most cases, why can't I use the story as my reward/motivation after each savage turn clear?

[JunseiKei]

let me rephrase: you'd be OK with someone who possibly can't even clear normal being in your party for a savage clear?

It's not about being able to clear savage,it's proving a basic competency in clearing mechanics.
If you're still ok with that.. sure. I've nothing against letting people try what they want, but I'm assuming from the amount of people in the forum that complain about people being "carried" and failing savage runs , that the complaints would increase to "omg why are they letting noobs into savage with no filter". It's not MUCH of a filter, but it's there. I'm suggesting that it's a gateway that was easy to implement and is there for actual "hardcore" players benefit.



all that being said, what's one run in normal to a hardcore hardmode loving raider?

Yes, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Most raiders go in with a group. Some of the fights are PUG-able (IE: V1S and V2S you didn't really need a group for even here on NA). They weren't too different from the normal version, just more punishing (IE: death) for failing the mechanics. As it is, too we have filters in raid finder: practice and duty complete. That's enough of a filter. Yes, you'll still run into carries, but if the difficulty is kept as is, you'll struggle to clear with someone who is dead most of the fight. Since the fights pretty much require everyone to be up, there's more of an emphasis to learn to get it right.

What is one normal run to a hardcore raider? Well, if you're coining anyone that does savage as a hardcore raider (in which you would be grossly wrong), it's not just one run, as normal still drops gear. Gear that certainly helps with savage and is a needless, extra step of grinding. So that's more time needed to sink into an instance that is already boring, made worse by drop RNG of what is bolts, gears, springs, shafts, lens and whatever I left out.

We all know the reason this is a bad idea is because people who don't belong in savage will attempt it, then complain about how everything is so hard and should be nerfed.

And we would have to deal with them

Aside from two changes to dungeons, those changes generally only happen to raid tiers when the content is "old." Deltascape would be getting "nerfed" with Sigmascape's release, if going by the coil model. Even then, we have unsyncing now, too. Remember, unsync debuted in 3.0. Since they split normal and savage, the only thing gained is echo and unsyncing with the next expansion.

I, for one, enjoyed struggling to learn coil and be greeted with a cutscene featuring my raid group. It felt special - it was an epic. Like, Homer's Odyssey epic, not the stupid slang use. That's probably why coil was especially special. It just lost so much impact.

[Aomine1992]

Lol I'm confused why skip normal it takes like no time yes you have to deal with some pug incompetence but it's a quick little detour and normal mode gear can be helpful while tome gear is locked behind the absurd 450 a week thing and crafted gear it's way to expensive especially for tanks unless you can make em all and Penta meld it...and clearly you won't have access to savage gear until clearing it

[LeeraSorlan]

Lol I'm confused why skip normal it takes like no time yes you have to deal with some pug incompetence but it's a quick little detour and normal mode gear can be helpful while tome gear is locked behind the absurd 450 a week thing and crafted gear it's way to expensive especially for tanks unless you can make em all and Penta meld it...and clearly you won't have access to savage gear until clearing it

So many people are unable to use basic reading comprehension in this topic....

[Krotoan]

Yes, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Most raiders go in with a group. Some of the fights are PUG-able ...

.. I'm lost.. I don't know if I'm thinking about this wrong or maybe I just don't understand your mindset.


you're going to have MORE people flopping on the ground to simple mechanics if you allow everyone to jump right in without a normal complete logged first.

why would you do more than one run of normal if you didn't have to? If you're dropping into savage on purpose and don't WANT to do more normal, then don't. Do your higher tier run without the mid-step.
The implication I was getting from the OP was that they didn't even want to do one clearing run which should be scant MINUTES out of someones day one time if they're just checking off a box.

Hey, I might have understood your points wrong.. but I don't think we're communicating.

[LeeraSorlan]

snip

His points are not that it takes long, or that he has to do more than one run or anything like that, his point is that the normal mode fights have alot of the same style of mechanics as savage. his point is that its a SPOILER to the fight itself, having to run through normal mode, you see the boss, you see the dumbed down mechanics and animations.

Having normal as a gate is not going to bring in more bad people to savage, its going to change absolutely nothing. Normal is not a gate, normal can be carried, ppl will get carried through normal and then join savage on day 1. IT IS NOT A GATE.


TLDR to his point --- The fights are spoilers, he doesnt want to do normal, because he wants to be more suprised by savage.




Please can people read his post and stop assuming all he wants to do is get rid of the headache of having to do it with bad people, thats not what he wants

[JunseiKei]

.. I'm lost.. I don't know if I'm thinking about this wrong or maybe I just don't understand your mindset.


you're going to have MORE people flopping on the ground to simple mechanics if you allow everyone to jump right in without a normal complete logged first.

why would you do more than one run of normal if you didn't have to? If you're dropping into savage on purpose and don't WANT to do more normal, then don't. Do your higher tier run without the mid-step.
The implication I was getting from the OP was that they didn't even want to do one clearing run which should be scant MINUTES out of someones day one time if they're just checking off a box.

Hey, I might have understood your points wrong.. but I don't think we're communicating.

No, you did not take my whole statement in, I think. Most groups go in together already as a premade is my first point. My second point is because the mechanics are actually punishing, it pushes you to learn the mechanics. Yes, you'll die more often, but it's because the difficulty is where it is that makes players actually pay attention is my other point. Take V1 and V1S; both are pretty simple and similar mechanically. The main difference is adding the ice during the classical elements and no rail. If you mess up the mechanic, you'll probably die. In my opinion, V1S is mechanically easier than story Thordan or the Aetherochemical Research Facility. The difficulty really comes from the amount of damage you take for messing up.

You still need gear for savage. Most people need the gear progression and not every raider can afford to max meld full crafted gear. You don't need to be rich to raid, just good with mechanics and working with 7 other people. The only people that might not need it are the 1% that cleared deltascape within the week. Anyone else benefited from gear drops from normal, but it is still progression bloat and a time waster. Your argument is going off of completely not needing to upgrade your gear to complete savage other than previous tomestone gear (because you're only doing normal once for the access to savage). I'm going off of unless you're that 1% that clears within the first week, you benefit from having tomegear or normal gear drops which still takes time to gather, even if you go in with your group and knock it out really quickly.

The main issue I see with FFXIV is that there is only baby steps and then a leap in the difficulty. Difficulty, as I said before, being you mess up and do a mechanic incorrectly, you die. All these "normal fights," you have entirely too much leeway and people keep slipping by because they can. The game is mechanically hard (when comparing to some other titles that are popular), but is entirely too forgiving outside of savage (even in extreme primals, they can be pretty forgiving a good chunk of the time). Having the normal tier just creates bloat while also removing the story portion of raiding for the sake of people that wanted the story from raids in a version of the game that did not have undersized party options.

EDIT:
And yes, Commander_Justitia's post was wanting to keep the story and surprise all together in savage without it being ruined by normal by being allowed to skip it. >_> I'm the one that would rather see the removal of normal because it does nothing.

[Krotoan]

His points are not that it takes long, or that he has to do more than one run or anything like that, his point is that the normal mode fights have alot of the same style of mechanics as savage. his point is that its a SPOILER to the fight itself, having to run through normal mode, you see the boss, you see the dumbed down mechanics and animations.

Having normal as a gate is not going to bring in more bad people to savage, its going to change absolutely nothing. Normal is not a gate, normal can be carried, ppl will get carried through normal and then join savage on day 1. IT IS NOT A GATE.


TLDR to his point --- The fights are spoilers, he doesnt want to do normal, because he wants to be more suprised by savage.




Please can people read his post and stop assuming all he wants to do is get rid of the headache of having to do it with bad people, thats not what he wants

I've read it and understood it, but what I'm posting is WHY it's unlikely savage will be available first thing.
I get why the OP WANTS it.. but I'm hashing out the reason it's the way it is.

I'm not here to debate a personal opinion like "it ruins the fight for me".