A Skipping Normal Raid Option :o ?!

[Reinha]

Skipping normal mode should be an option. If some people want to go do savage before doing the story for that raid, that doesn't affect anyone else and they should be allowed to. Savage is content for statics and this would be a group decision. The devs wouldn't even have to change the raid quests to include savage as an option. Just make the Minstrel unlock savage straight away.

[Theodric]

Skipping normal mode should be an option. If some people want to go do savage before doing the story for that raid, that doesn't affect anyone else and they should be allowed to. Savage is content for statics and this would be a group decision. The devs wouldn't even have to change the raid quests to include savage as an option. Just make the Minstrel unlock savage straight away.

Actually, it does affect other people. If there is absolutely no need for people to do the story mode of a raid then the amount of people running it declines which results in higher queue times and less competent people in the pool of potential players to be grouped with.

[Reinha]

Actually, it does affect other people. If there is absolutely no need for people to do the story mode of a raid then the amount of people running it declines which results in higher queue times and less competent people in the pool of potential players to be grouped with.

You're right, but this would only be noticeable during the first week, since we are talking about completion. Those who want to farm it (multiple kills) every week for gear would still do it but the people going straight to savage using other gear would skip their one clear. Considering how small the savage player pool is and then considering how few are likely to care about being spoiled or willing skip sources of gear, I don't think the number of people clearing normal would be affected very much.

Having less competent players wouldn't be so bad imo, assuming we want people to get better. Getting carried does not make people improve.

[KaivaC]

This is how I see this issue...let's use an example. Let's take a theoretical. Brand new player to FFXIV, uses a jump potion to pick a SAM and get it to 70 on their first day in Eorzea (remember, this is theoretical...roll with it). They don't have any foundations on DPS'ing or rotation, but they jump into Susano EX - and all they do is spam random buttons.

You're not going to pass sword phase unless your healers are on point with their own DPS. You wipe because this SAM doesn't know how to do his job, doesn't have any foundations to do anything even remotely good with the class.

That's my issue with the option to completely skip normal. Perhaps it does spoil...but at the same time, you have some foundation on what to expect. And if I recall, the first tier of endgame raids are usually the easiest. And easy? Psh...I have run into more parties that can't even get out of the cave phase with O3S than I have seen clear/farm parties. We don't need to encourage more casuals who don't have their foundations down to skip ahead. It's already bad enough that the wall is quite literally O3S for a lot of groups, or even Shinryu Ex.

[Zojha]

That's my issue with the option to completely skip normal.

The SAM example you just named had to clear Susano normal during the story.

The next thing you state is that this does in no way qualify him for Susano EX. It's the exact same for NM vs Savage raids.

Again, if you want competency checks, that's fine, but you should look for something more suitable. Skipping the NM version is fairly irrelevant - If you want something of comparable difficulty, you should at least look at the EX trials that are current at that time.

[KaivaC]

snip

I was speaking in theoretical terms...I should've made it more clear. The example I was putting up was the SAM's first fight being Susano Ex, with the option of going straight to that fight around the time it was released. Regardless, the whole point of my fake example was that players need a foundation to be able to get into the Savage tier...same as when, before jump potions, players actually (well...supposed to) learn their jobs as they leveled up. A good portion of players at least. Can players learn an EX/Savage fight without having fought the normal version first? Sure...but if we're going with when the raid was released, do you really want a bunch of casuals being able to jump straight into Savage as well? Again, we've all been in those trap parties where supposed players can't stop dying to easy mechanics. That's really my only opposition to having Savage unlocked from the start. Everything else the OP was saying made sense...I just don't trust those truly casual players who don't even know their CDs.

[Ameela]

And if I recall, the first tier of endgame raids are usually the easiest.

Actually it tends to be the final tier ironically enough.

Coil's difficulty was Second > Binding > Final
Meanwhile with Alex it was Gordias > Midas > Creator

So while they say they'll be making the next raid tiers more difficult I'm not inclined to believe them just yet (especially when last time there was a response to content being too easy from the dev team we got Zurvan lul)

[KaivaC]

Actually it tends to be the final tier ironically enough.

Coil's difficulty was Second > Binding > Final
Meanwhile with Alex it was Gordias > Midas > Creator

So while they say they'll be making the next raid tiers more difficult I'm not inclined to believe them just yet (especially when last time there was a response to content being too easy from the dev team we got Zurvan lul)

Heh...seems I'm out of my element here lol.
I'll go to monitoring this thread.

[Commander_Justitia]

I thought a bit about it, it seems like the main disadvantage people have seems to be having inexperienced players in savage, even though they can be carried through normal anyway.

Well, you can still prevent that, while allowing my option too.
Unlocking the new savage tier right off could be tied to clearing the old savage tier ( like Binding Coil of Bahamut, which requires it also).
If you are a returner to the game you can decide of playing normal modes or finish savage to unlock the new savage, both options would work individually.

[Kleeya]

While i can see why normal mode can spoil savage for some players, how many are they to jump blindly into a high difficulty mode without knowing anything of it ? 0,5.% at best ?

Three days after something is released, 80% of the playerbase expect you to have watch/read a guide about it beforehand to not loose their precious time, hence all the players ragequitting after only one or two wipes, shouting "OMG NO ONE KNOW THE MECHANICS !!!". When i see that the other day, some players didn't even know what a spread marker was in Omega 4 normal thus making someone throwing a tantrum at them, how many people would feel pissed off by seeing total noobs going directly into savage, undergeared because by skipping normal mode they wouldn't even know where to get decent stuff, without even knowing what a stack marker is ? At least 50% of the playerbase ?

Of course if you are in a static party, always playing with the same players, you wouldn't care about it, that making normal mode skippable is gonna make way more drama and rage than that we already have now in random parties. But for my part i sure dont want to see even more people losing their mind after only two wipes. I would prefer to have savage having totally different bosses than normal mode, that way you will not be spoiled, AND we could hope to have players knowing the basics before trying something who might be otherwise way too hard for them.