A Skipping Normal Raid Option :o ?!

[PharisHanasaki]

We all know the reason this is a bad idea is because people who don't belong in savage will attempt it, then complain about how everything is so hard and should be nerfed.

And we would have to deal with them

[JunseiKei]

let me rephrase: you'd be OK with someone who possibly can't even clear normal being in your party for a savage clear?

It's not about being able to clear savage,it's proving a basic competency in clearing mechanics.
If you're still ok with that.. sure. I've nothing against letting people try what they want, but I'm assuming from the amount of people in the forum that complain about people being "carried" and failing savage runs , that the complaints would increase to "omg why are they letting noobs into savage with no filter". It's not MUCH of a filter, but it's there. I'm suggesting that it's a gateway that was easy to implement and is there for actual "hardcore" players benefit.



all that being said, what's one run in normal to a hardcore hardmode loving raider?

Yes, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Most raiders go in with a group. Some of the fights are PUG-able (IE: V1S and V2S you didn't really need a group for even here on NA). They weren't too different from the normal version, just more punishing (IE: death) for failing the mechanics. As it is, too we have filters in raid finder: practice and duty complete. That's enough of a filter. Yes, you'll still run into carries, but if the difficulty is kept as is, you'll struggle to clear with someone who is dead most of the fight. Since the fights pretty much require everyone to be up, there's more of an emphasis to learn to get it right.

What is one normal run to a hardcore raider? Well, if you're coining anyone that does savage as a hardcore raider (in which you would be grossly wrong), it's not just one run, as normal still drops gear. Gear that certainly helps with savage and is a needless, extra step of grinding. So that's more time needed to sink into an instance that is already boring, made worse by drop RNG of what is bolts, gears, springs, shafts, lens and whatever I left out.

We all know the reason this is a bad idea is because people who don't belong in savage will attempt it, then complain about how everything is so hard and should be nerfed.

And we would have to deal with them

Aside from two changes to dungeons, those changes generally only happen to raid tiers when the content is "old." Deltascape would be getting "nerfed" with Sigmascape's release, if going by the coil model. Even then, we have unsyncing now, too. Remember, unsync debuted in 3.0. Since they split normal and savage, the only thing gained is echo and unsyncing with the next expansion.

I, for one, enjoyed struggling to learn coil and be greeted with a cutscene featuring my raid group. It felt special - it was an epic. Like, Homer's Odyssey epic, not the stupid slang use. That's probably why coil was especially special. It just lost so much impact.

[Krotoan]

Yes, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Most raiders go in with a group. Some of the fights are PUG-able ...

.. I'm lost.. I don't know if I'm thinking about this wrong or maybe I just don't understand your mindset.


you're going to have MORE people flopping on the ground to simple mechanics if you allow everyone to jump right in without a normal complete logged first.

why would you do more than one run of normal if you didn't have to? If you're dropping into savage on purpose and don't WANT to do more normal, then don't. Do your higher tier run without the mid-step.
The implication I was getting from the OP was that they didn't even want to do one clearing run which should be scant MINUTES out of someones day one time if they're just checking off a box.

Hey, I might have understood your points wrong.. but I don't think we're communicating.

[LeeraSorlan]

snip

His points are not that it takes long, or that he has to do more than one run or anything like that, his point is that the normal mode fights have alot of the same style of mechanics as savage. his point is that its a SPOILER to the fight itself, having to run through normal mode, you see the boss, you see the dumbed down mechanics and animations.

Having normal as a gate is not going to bring in more bad people to savage, its going to change absolutely nothing. Normal is not a gate, normal can be carried, ppl will get carried through normal and then join savage on day 1. IT IS NOT A GATE.


TLDR to his point --- The fights are spoilers, he doesnt want to do normal, because he wants to be more suprised by savage.




Please can people read his post and stop assuming all he wants to do is get rid of the headache of having to do it with bad people, thats not what he wants

[Krotoan]

His points are not that it takes long, or that he has to do more than one run or anything like that, his point is that the normal mode fights have alot of the same style of mechanics as savage. his point is that its a SPOILER to the fight itself, having to run through normal mode, you see the boss, you see the dumbed down mechanics and animations.

Having normal as a gate is not going to bring in more bad people to savage, its going to change absolutely nothing. Normal is not a gate, normal can be carried, ppl will get carried through normal and then join savage on day 1. IT IS NOT A GATE.


TLDR to his point --- The fights are spoilers, he doesnt want to do normal, because he wants to be more suprised by savage.




Please can people read his post and stop assuming all he wants to do is get rid of the headache of having to do it with bad people, thats not what he wants

I've read it and understood it, but what I'm posting is WHY it's unlikely savage will be available first thing.
I get why the OP WANTS it.. but I'm hashing out the reason it's the way it is.

I'm not here to debate a personal opinion like "it ruins the fight for me".

[LeeraSorlan]

I've read it and understood it, but what I'm posting is WHY it's unlikely savage will be available first thing.
I get why the OP WANTS it.. but I'm hashing out the reason it's the way it is.

I'm not here to debate a personal opinion like "it ruins the fight for me".

But thats his only point, there is no arguement that points to normal being required because its a gate for savage, its not a gate, its not a gate at all, you can be carried through normal, alot of people are, who joins your party will not be determined by if they were good enough to clear Normal or not. Because they will clear normal, they can get carried, on day 1.

[Krotoan]

But thats his only point, there is no arguement that points to normal being required because its a gate for savage, its not a gate, its not a gate at all, you can be carried through normal, alot of people are, who joins your party will not be determined by if they were good enough to clear Normal or not. Because they will clear normal, they can get carried, on day 1.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm not on the Dev team. Nothing I say has any weight as far their actual reasons. I'm guessing as much as anything as to why that's there and it seems as good a reason as any.
However the alternative is they just thought: ... so.. normal then hard right?
which seems like far less thought than goes into any other part of the game. It was a development decision and had to have SOME discussion before it was done. Code had to be written and systems had to be implemented to make it happen.

I will say that if it keeps ONE person out of 100 from clicking on a PF because "oh.. duty locked" then it is filtering. Not a great filter, but it has still prevented a totally inexperienced person from "lol wuts this" -ing into someones experience.

[JunseiKei]

I've read it and understood it, but what I'm posting is WHY it's unlikely savage will be available first thing.
I get why the OP WANTS it.. but I'm hashing out the reason it's the way it is.

I'm not here to debate a personal opinion like "it ruins the fight for me".

Normal only exists because people complained The Binding Coils of Bahamut had a story directly tied to 1.0 and was concluded in the raids. Not everyone wanted to, or could, raid that wanted to know the conclusion. Then people complained Alexander wasn't tied to the main scenario. Now Omega is tied to the main scenario, just like Bahamut was. For all intents and purposes, people complained they didn't want to look at the cutscenes people recorded to see the story and wanted an easy version for story featuring their character. Then we got undersized parties in 3.0, making me question why did we get normal again when you can undersize it at a later date.

[JunseiKei]

.. I'm lost.. I don't know if I'm thinking about this wrong or maybe I just don't understand your mindset.


you're going to have MORE people flopping on the ground to simple mechanics if you allow everyone to jump right in without a normal complete logged first.

why would you do more than one run of normal if you didn't have to? If you're dropping into savage on purpose and don't WANT to do more normal, then don't. Do your higher tier run without the mid-step.
The implication I was getting from the OP was that they didn't even want to do one clearing run which should be scant MINUTES out of someones day one time if they're just checking off a box.

Hey, I might have understood your points wrong.. but I don't think we're communicating.

No, you did not take my whole statement in, I think. Most groups go in together already as a premade is my first point. My second point is because the mechanics are actually punishing, it pushes you to learn the mechanics. Yes, you'll die more often, but it's because the difficulty is where it is that makes players actually pay attention is my other point. Take V1 and V1S; both are pretty simple and similar mechanically. The main difference is adding the ice during the classical elements and no rail. If you mess up the mechanic, you'll probably die. In my opinion, V1S is mechanically easier than story Thordan or the Aetherochemical Research Facility. The difficulty really comes from the amount of damage you take for messing up.

You still need gear for savage. Most people need the gear progression and not every raider can afford to max meld full crafted gear. You don't need to be rich to raid, just good with mechanics and working with 7 other people. The only people that might not need it are the 1% that cleared deltascape within the week. Anyone else benefited from gear drops from normal, but it is still progression bloat and a time waster. Your argument is going off of completely not needing to upgrade your gear to complete savage other than previous tomestone gear (because you're only doing normal once for the access to savage). I'm going off of unless you're that 1% that clears within the first week, you benefit from having tomegear or normal gear drops which still takes time to gather, even if you go in with your group and knock it out really quickly.

The main issue I see with FFXIV is that there is only baby steps and then a leap in the difficulty. Difficulty, as I said before, being you mess up and do a mechanic incorrectly, you die. All these "normal fights," you have entirely too much leeway and people keep slipping by because they can. The game is mechanically hard (when comparing to some other titles that are popular), but is entirely too forgiving outside of savage (even in extreme primals, they can be pretty forgiving a good chunk of the time). Having the normal tier just creates bloat while also removing the story portion of raiding for the sake of people that wanted the story from raids in a version of the game that did not have undersized party options.

EDIT:
And yes, Commander_Justitia's post was wanting to keep the story and surprise all together in savage without it being ruined by normal by being allowed to skip it. >_> I'm the one that would rather see the removal of normal because it does nothing.

[Krotoan]

No, you did not take my whole statement in, I think. Most groups go in together already as a premade is my first point. My second point is because the mechanics are actually punishing, it pushes you to learn the mechanics. Yes, you'll die more often, but it's because the difficulty is where it is that makes players actually pay attention is my other point. Take V1 and V1S; both are pretty simple and similar mechanically.

EDIT:
And yes, Commander_Justitia's post was wanting to keep the story and surprise all together in savage without it being ruined by normal by being allowed to skip it. >_> I'm the one that would rather see the removal of normal because it does nothing.

Oh.. you're arguing to take it out entirely, which is not in line with the OP. Hence the confusion.
I'm not going to argue the validity of having a "normal" difficulty.