Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[winsock]

So, switching it up a bit, would you say if I come to a gathering of sports-loving guys, and someone decides "Hey, let's play [the sport for which you've all gathered]", it's unreasonable to expect everyone ther to AT LEAST - and let me emphasize that - AT LEAST be capable of the basics of said sport? Because that's what we're talking about here.

Can every hockey fan ice-skate?
Can every swimming fan swim?
Can every polo fan ride a horse?
How do you realistically guarantee that everyone in the group is a "sports-loving guy"?

And don't try to take the hardline "well you can just not pug then" approach.
I've seen plenty of people complaining that they can't find groups.

K, ill take your approach then:
If you cant find/create a static, it's because you arent putting in the effort. We are talking about basic social skills

[Bourne_Endeavor]

all of the game is pressing buttons, all button pressing is easy; therefore, we should clear all savage content on the first attempt yes?

... the leap in logic you just made here eclipses that of the gap between player skill. Putting aside the utter absurdity of it, the tooltips themselves explain skills that combo off one another deal higher damage when performed in a specific order. If someone still cannot figure it out, they're an idiot.

Can every hockey fan ice-skate?

Considering I am a hockey fan who cannot skate well, if asked to play, I would either decline or admit to it and accept the advice offered. Maybe if people didn't get so offended if you dare to call out their poor performance, we could do that.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Can every hockey fan ice-skate?
Can every swimming fan swim?
Can every polo fan ride a horse?
How do you realistically guarantee that everyone in the group is a "sports-loving guy"?

Spare me your attempts at being clever. You haven't once given a solid answer or rebuttal to anything someone here has said. So until you're ready to discuss it like a reasonable adult, you can keep your crap rhetoric to yourself. And WHILE you're at it, if you want to try and stick to your guns here, then it's all up to you then. You be the one to simply grin and bear dealing with players who either don't try, or show a complete lack of basic skills the game literally handholds you to learn LONG before endgame. The ones who will try and will give their best will do exactly as you say and simply party with each other. Then who gets left behind, crying for nerfs? The fact that it's become so commonplace to ask for nerfs instead of advice, or even just pushing yourself to do better is a serious discredit, and a huge hinderance on the growth of this game, let alone its players. And your attempts to handwave it with bad logic do them no favors.

I absolutely HATE Brayflox. But I understand the subtle genius behind that dungeon. It's the first one you run as a job, and the first that truly calls for you to perform the role you entered as. Brayflox herself is designed to rip hate off the tank in the 2nd boss fight, then run for the nearest party member; there's your learning moment for the tank. The third boss traps players in a bubble, a bubble which they themselves can break themselves out of. Any DPS sleeping on the job or underperforming is going to have a real bad time. And Aiatar is pretty much a lesson in positioning (both yourself and a large enemy), healing, and dealing damage effectively enough to not "run out of time" at least in the form of safe ground in the room. And it ought to be an embarrassment that first time players handle that challenge better than many endgame players handle similar concepts at higher levels with higher stakes.

If you don't see that, and you simply want to make flat arguments, then let me be the one to say this entire discussion is calling for a higher level of ability than you both show and attempt to defend. The irony of that in relation to the title of this thread is certainly not lost on me, nor anyone else actually making valid points here.

[winsock]

Spare me your attempts at being clever. You haven't once given a solid answer or rebuttal to anything someone here has said.

I beg to differ.

Your claim was that a group of "sports-loving guys" would know the basics of how to play the sport they loved.
My counter-point was that not all polo fans know the basics of riding a horse.

^ your claim was not thought out properly. It was not a solid point. It crumbles depending on the sport. You cant defend your point, so you attack me directly, talk down to me, and then tell me am acting childish lol.

My points were valid.
Your premise was not an accurate representation of the pool of players in the duty finder. At best, this is a pool group of people who want to clear XYZ content or roulette.
You made an assumption that their love of the sport will somehow translate into proficiency at the sport. Obviously, that assumption is not true.
In the duty finder, someone's desire to clear XYZ content is not a reflection of their skill level.

I absolutely HATE Brayflox. But I understand the subtle genius behind that dungeon.

This isnt a design discussion. This is a discussion of poor performance. With the question being "Why does it feel like poor play is acceptable?".
Say I queue leveling roulette as a tank, get brayflox, and at some point in the dungeon one of the potential problems you mention occurs, doesnt really matter which one.
The party member in question isn't kicked
They make a similar mistake and are not kicked.
etc
As I said in my first post, it will only feel like poor play is acceptable if you decide to feel that way. It really doesnt matter how many mistakes someone makes. I am by no means saying that their performance is acceptable, maybe 'tolerable' at best.

People are acting like the sky is falling when the randomly assigned party member doesnt meet their expectations. Getting bad party members on occasion is a part of pugging. You dont need to accept poor performer, you can kick them or what have you, but it is completely unreasonable to expect everyone who was randomly assigned to you in the duty finder to meet your expectations every time.

[Dualgunner]

My points were valid.

Except for the failed hypothetical syllogism. That wasn't very valid.

[HyoMinPark]

People are acting like the sky is falling when the randomly assigned party member doesnt meet their expectations. Getting bad party members on occasion is a part of pugging. You dont need to accept poor performer, you can kick them or what have you, but it is completely unreasonable to expect everyone who was randomly assigned to you in the duty finder to meet your expectations every time.

Most of what I see are people sympathizing with the OP in that they have met players at levels much higher than beginner levels performing subparly, and then getting bent out of shape when someone offers to show them a proper way/better way to play, and how poor play in higher level content is just not acceptable. Or how it’s not “high standards” to expect people at levels 50, 60, and 70 to know the very basics of their job/role. And people disagreeing that playing the game/playing your job well is not the equivalent of treating the game like a “job”, as one poster tried to insinuate.

Different skill levels do exist. But that doesn’t make lazy play (note, how I said lazy play, not play born from lack of knowledge on your job/role) okay. Especially the higher level you get. A non-combo’d Butcher’s Block only WAR in Snowcloak? Tank unable to perform the basics of his role in a level 70 dungeon? Healer unable to keep up with basic healing demands? Unacceptable.

Because I find it very unlikely that that WAR didn’t know Butcher’s Block uncomboed is extremely ineffective. And, on the off-chance he did and turned down helpful, respectfully delivered advice because “it’s my sub”, then he is still at fault, and his behavior is still unacceptable.

I find it far more upsetting that people are willing to white-knight poor play because “it’s just a game”. Yeah, well so is something like football or basketball. Doesn’t mean that you just let the opposing team steal the ball from you each time because “lol it’s just a game, I play for fun”. I’m willing to overlook if a player is truly new, and if it really looks like they are trying to improve. But if a person is willfully performing poorly, I have no patience or tolerance for them.

[MoroMurasaki]

People are acting like the sky is falling when the randomly assigned party member doesnt meet their expectations. Getting bad party members on occasion is a part of pugging. You dont need to accept poor performer, you can kick them or what have you, but it is completely unreasonable to expect everyone who was randomly assigned to you in the duty finder to meet your expectations every time.

When your standards are "read your tooltips and apply logic to them to come to some sort of rudimentary rotation" yes, that's a completely reasonable thing to expect in group content.

If you can't read how are you playing this game? If you can't follow a series of flashing buttons telling you what to press next I feel you shouldn't be doing group content until this is something within your wheelhouse.

[Jijifli]

Your claim was that a group of "sports-loving guys" would know the basics of how to play the sport they loved.

Are going to tell me you fully believe if a person is a fan of Baseball, watches multiple games, but doesn't know you run bases counterclockwise when he decides to do it?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

You dont need to accept poor performer, you can kick them or what have you, but it is completely unreasonable to expect everyone who was randomly assigned to you in the duty finder to meet your expectations every time.

What you seem to not be getting is that no one is enforcing "their" standard. That is where your attempts at an argument fall apart. We're talking about a reasonable standard. Would you not consider being geared at minimum ilvl a reasonable standard and not a player enforced one? That's not the player saying "you need gear at this level at least for this", that's the game itself saying it. Would you consider a max level to be a reasonable standard by which to have an understanding, even if basic, of a job and how it works? Is it not reasonable to expect a max level tank to be capable of holding aggro and utilizing defensive cooldowns as needed? By all means, explain where "reasonable standard" is somehow lost in translation here.

I'm not going to even entertain your attempt at trying to break down my "sports" metaphor. And before you even think about trying to play the "well you're just dodging it because you can't give a rebuttal" bit, no, I'm not dodging it one bit. But neither one of us would get anything substantial from me deconstructing a weak argument or talking down to you. Not when there are bigger points that are being missed here. So, effectively, think what you want on that one, but bring a better argument before you try breaking mine down.

Lastly, you seem to have stopped at my mention of Brayflox, attempting to form your rebuttal right then and there. The larger point of that tangent was to point out that the dungeon is subtle in pushing players to learn things that they'll be dealing with forever after, and in a way that begins to sow the seeds of effective team play in their understanding of general gameplay, and how their job/role fits into it. I noted that newer players make fewer mistakes there in the learning environment than some endgame players make in endgame content, where it becomes time to skillfully apply what was learned. And again, would you not call it reasonable to expect more competency and fewer missteps from an experienced player (at least as level would dictate) than a newer player?

[HyoMinPark]

If you cant find/create a static, it's because you arent putting in the effort. We are talking about basic social skills

False. If one works/goes to school/has other stuff happening outside of the game that prevents them from finding a decent group that can meet during their available times, I would hardly say that they are not putting in the effort to find a group/are being lazy. Likewise, if a person has an inconsistent work schedule (think about a lot of part-time jobs that do not give out consistent hours), and their playtimes are varied throughout the week, creating a static with fixed times (or joining one) is also not going to work for them because their work schedule doesn’t allow it.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the opening post or this thread, which is discussing how people in the upper, endgame levels play poorly and refuse to take any sort of constructive/helpful advice offered to them because “it’s my sub”.

None of the posts you have made make even remotely any sense. Please work on your debate and argumentative skills before jumping into a forum discussion, please.