Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Dualgunner]

I'm not saying that's okay.
You do realize these people exist? You do realize that they may enter your party if you pull from a pool of randoms? You do realize that whining about these players on the forums is not going remove these people from existence?

You must similarly realize that whining at people will not stop them from whining? All you're doing is adding to an odd cacophony. Ah, but here I am whining about whining about whining...

If a kid breaks a window of your house playing baseball, its one thing deal with it by getting compensation, its another thing go on a rant about how society finds window breaking behaviors acceptable and how children are horrible monsters that curse families.

In this case, the overwhelming majority of the community not only says it's okay that breaking windows is fine, but more kids should aim to break the windows of the innocent because the people who own those windows don't pay for the kid's ball.

all of the game is pressing buttons, all button pressing is easy; therefore, we should clear all savage content on the first attempt yes?

Good attempt at a hypothetical syllogism. I don't think it works here, though, as your first premise is incorrect: not all of the game is pressing buttons, merely the basics are. In savage, in addition to pressing buttons, you're also preempting and predicting boss attacks to survive, and counting on all seven other players to do the same, in order to beat the boss.

"All of life is walking. Walking is easy. Therefore all of life will be easy." is a similar attempt at a hypothetical syllogism with a similarly flawed first premise.

EDIT: Alternatively, your second premise is incorrect: not all button pressing is easy, and your opponent never claimed it was: merely stated that pressing buttons in a predetermined sequence, when the next button in the sequence lights up, is easy.

[Ceasaria]

One of the solution I'am thinking is to put "solo phase" in 4 men & 8 men content.
Players would be separate from each other, and would have to deal with some mecanics and/or monsters to kill (+ healing for healer ; generate aggro for tank).
It would be more difficult than what we have in solo instance.

[winsock]

So, switching it up a bit, would you say if I come to a gathering of sports-loving guys, and someone decides "Hey, let's play [the sport for which you've all gathered]", it's unreasonable to expect everyone ther to AT LEAST - and let me emphasize that - AT LEAST be capable of the basics of said sport? Because that's what we're talking about here.

Can every hockey fan ice-skate?
Can every swimming fan swim?
Can every polo fan ride a horse?
How do you realistically guarantee that everyone in the group is a "sports-loving guy"?

And don't try to take the hardline "well you can just not pug then" approach.
I've seen plenty of people complaining that they can't find groups.

K, ill take your approach then:
If you cant find/create a static, it's because you arent putting in the effort. We are talking about basic social skills

[MoroMurasaki]

all of the game is pressing buttons, all button pressing is easy; therefore, we should clear all savage content on the first attempt yes?

Are you trolling?


I mean, honestly, this (and your other posts in this thread) really toe the line for me.

You have these huge jumps in logic ( combos light up to indicate which buttons to press in sequence --> button pressing is easy --> savage is button pressing therefor easy) that show either a complete lack of understanding in how the game (or perhaps games in general) works or blatant disreguard for basic analytical thought.

No one said all button pressing was easy, people have expressed their expectation that players read tooltips on their abilities and use them in a way that makes sense. This isn't minmaxing your Chain Stratagem to coincide with Battle Litany it's just thinking "oh, this buffs dps, lemme use it when it comes up" which is entirely a different ballgame.

Ultimately the standards for the community have been established and they're pretty centrist on the issue of expected competence. If someone is so bad they impede your ability to clear then kick them. If you want to be kind offer advice and see if you can help them improve.

Even the worst players will eventually find their way through the entire main story because they'll eventually encounter groups who don't care enough to kick them and are competent enough to carry them through despite their own ineptitude.

This thread and the many others like it aren't going to change the simple fact that bads exist. It isn't even going to up their chances of being kicked. It's here to rant about poor experiences the OP had with players who were playing really poorly.

Frankly since you're so happy to have anyone in your group irrespective of their level of competence I'm unsure why you even clicked on this thread given the title.

Unless you're trolling.

Or whiteknighting/virtue signaling.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a dirty, conniving elitist after all - I expect my DPS to outdps me when I'm on tank/healer, the shame!

[The_Profezzor87]

The pain is when the good players stop pugging and the less skilled are bereft of people to carry them, whining for nerfs happens and the game becomes even easier.

Exactly this.....

[Bourne_Endeavor]

all of the game is pressing buttons, all button pressing is easy; therefore, we should clear all savage content on the first attempt yes?

... the leap in logic you just made here eclipses that of the gap between player skill. Putting aside the utter absurdity of it, the tooltips themselves explain skills that combo off one another deal higher damage when performed in a specific order. If someone still cannot figure it out, they're an idiot.

Can every hockey fan ice-skate?

Considering I am a hockey fan who cannot skate well, if asked to play, I would either decline or admit to it and accept the advice offered. Maybe if people didn't get so offended if you dare to call out their poor performance, we could do that.

[odintius]

I remember when they said their adding duty finder to this game that to me was the biggest mistake they made for all it pro's it also has it con's that comes along with it. Not to say other factors that compound the issue although they kept true to the mmo theme park the learning curve imo needs address as well. /Shrug that my two cents anyway!

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Can every hockey fan ice-skate?
Can every swimming fan swim?
Can every polo fan ride a horse?
How do you realistically guarantee that everyone in the group is a "sports-loving guy"?

Spare me your attempts at being clever. You haven't once given a solid answer or rebuttal to anything someone here has said. So until you're ready to discuss it like a reasonable adult, you can keep your crap rhetoric to yourself. And WHILE you're at it, if you want to try and stick to your guns here, then it's all up to you then. You be the one to simply grin and bear dealing with players who either don't try, or show a complete lack of basic skills the game literally handholds you to learn LONG before endgame. The ones who will try and will give their best will do exactly as you say and simply party with each other. Then who gets left behind, crying for nerfs? The fact that it's become so commonplace to ask for nerfs instead of advice, or even just pushing yourself to do better is a serious discredit, and a huge hinderance on the growth of this game, let alone its players. And your attempts to handwave it with bad logic do them no favors.

I absolutely HATE Brayflox. But I understand the subtle genius behind that dungeon. It's the first one you run as a job, and the first that truly calls for you to perform the role you entered as. Brayflox herself is designed to rip hate off the tank in the 2nd boss fight, then run for the nearest party member; there's your learning moment for the tank. The third boss traps players in a bubble, a bubble which they themselves can break themselves out of. Any DPS sleeping on the job or underperforming is going to have a real bad time. And Aiatar is pretty much a lesson in positioning (both yourself and a large enemy), healing, and dealing damage effectively enough to not "run out of time" at least in the form of safe ground in the room. And it ought to be an embarrassment that first time players handle that challenge better than many endgame players handle similar concepts at higher levels with higher stakes.

If you don't see that, and you simply want to make flat arguments, then let me be the one to say this entire discussion is calling for a higher level of ability than you both show and attempt to defend. The irony of that in relation to the title of this thread is certainly not lost on me, nor anyone else actually making valid points here.

[HyoMinPark]

If you cant find/create a static, it's because you arent putting in the effort. We are talking about basic social skills

False. If one works/goes to school/has other stuff happening outside of the game that prevents them from finding a decent group that can meet during their available times, I would hardly say that they are not putting in the effort to find a group/are being lazy. Likewise, if a person has an inconsistent work schedule (think about a lot of part-time jobs that do not give out consistent hours), and their playtimes are varied throughout the week, creating a static with fixed times (or joining one) is also not going to work for them because their work schedule doesn’t allow it.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the opening post or this thread, which is discussing how people in the upper, endgame levels play poorly and refuse to take any sort of constructive/helpful advice offered to them because “it’s my sub”.

None of the posts you have made make even remotely any sense. Please work on your debate and argumentative skills before jumping into a forum discussion, please.

[Starflake]

I sometimes struggle in this game to not be foul mouthed. Yes, it's a game that you're playing, but you are playing with me and others. Other people who's time is dependend on you. If you're somewhat of a responsible adult with a good head on his shoulders, people should realise this. I don't enjoy spending thirty minutes in an expert roulette because you haven't figured out how to aoe at all in level 70 content. When I enter a farm party, I don't want to kill primals only twice in like an hour because you aren't prepared and are doing a poor job. I invest time in this game, but I'm also invested in spending that time optimally. Now, as the OP suggests, I also do not expect perfect play. I expect people to be reasonable and realise they carry a responsibility to not waste my and other people their time. The game is 16 plus in most countries and 12 plus in some others. So it's to be expected that there will be people who simply do not possess the common sense at that age to realise or understimate the value of other people their time. I am not playing currently, but when the new patch arrives and I will hopefully be playing, I will attempt to pug as little as possible. On average, an expert with FC friends lasts 12 minutes. A decent run with pugs lasts 20 and a bad one 25-30 minutes. Think about that for a moment. If you've been playing this game for four years doing one expert a day. Let's say I would pug an expert each time and on average I lose 10 minutes in comparison to an FC run. 365x4= 1460. Multiply that by 10 and you have 14600 minutes lost you could have spent doing something else. 240 hours total. And that is only for experts. I don't see this as a joke. I love playing this game, but don't waste my time.