I miss the old PvP.

[RiyahArp]

My point is that the way you played bard in pve with their pve kit was if anything even more different then than it is now. If anything, bard now kind of makes it a lot easier in pvp because it automatically cycles and condenses the different stances and removes things that wouldn't work in pvp. Some jobs even wind up being better; red mage's vercombo is a pure space saver. If this were 3.0, each job would pare half of its kit off anyways, which made the original point that "3.0 was more cohesive" a bit of a joke. A lot of what was lost in 3.0 was either useless (most jobs aoe and dots) or needed to be gone (constant, oppressive cc, one-trick moves that didn't have counterplay.)

And if they went back to it, you all would still be complaining. People complained a lot in 3.0. There was a lot of change over time; people hated being stunned and one shot by melee lb, they hated mass caster lb, they hated blm sleep spam, they weren't keen on pld able to cc for 10 seconds, and more. Just because time has passed and you have forgotten the bad and glorified the good doesn't mean the bad never existed. You'd also end up just raising the skill ceiling in pvp in addition too.

[Wintersandman]

There was a lot of change over time; people hated being stunned and one shot by melee lb, they hated mass caster lb, they hated blm sleep spam, they weren't keen on pld able to cc for 10 seconds, and more. Just because time has passed and you have forgotten the bad and glorified the good doesn't mean the bad never existed. You'd also end up just raising the skill ceiling in pvp in addition too.

Adding a vit accessory eliminated getting one shot by melee LB which a good healer would spot and top off the person. Sleep and caster LB was only threatening if it was an organized premade but there were also ways to counter that (Spread out). Stun locked by paladin was only a threat if other people were paying attention, otherwise it was annoying and it was only 7 seconds and then the person went immune.

If you want to get technical AoE abilities were not useful in killing a PC but they were useful in keeping an enemy from tagging an objective. Same as such AoE healing was only useful to counteract damage spread, AoE's or DoT damage that wasn't followed through which was useful all in the same right. So yes it was more cohesive. CC abilities were there which provided balance in counteracting any class. The elimination of the PvP abilities homogenized all the classes so they pretty much feel all the same. There were ways to counteract everything and there was no one-trick move that didn't have counterplay.

I only see you complaining about 3.0 and the rest saying they miss it. The people who played regularly outside their daily roulette enjoyed it.

Imagine that in RW, it would make even the "zerg mid to activate it" strat useless.

At least "Hold mid with 3 healers" would have a counter. Shoot one good ninja could take out a healer in 3.0. So even if one healer was holding it, one player could cap mid. You are already stating reasons why the 3.0 toolkit would balance the current healer problem.

[RiyahArp]

Adding a vit accessory eliminated getting one shot by melee LB which a good healer would spot and top off the person. Sleep and caster LB was only threatening if it was an organized premade but there were also ways to counter that (Spread out). Stun locked by paladin was only a threat if other people were paying attention, otherwise it was annoying and it was only 7 seconds and then the person went immune.

You needed about two, and that also gimped your damage. That only preventing being one shot directly, which left you with maybe 1k HP from full HP. Even wearing them, it was still hard to counter, which is why they drastically nerfed it; it often was just direct, forced kill, especially in feast on tanks with medal stacks. The match devolved into waiting till the end to one shot the tank.

And you forget the pld could also silence and pacify, and a healer or blm could sleep or bind/kb. An organize team could chain cc to an absurd extent.

If you want to get technical AoE abilities were not useful in killing a PC but they were useful in keeping an enemy from tagging an objective. Same as such AoE healing was only useful to counteract damage spread, AoE's or DoT damage that wasn't followed through which was useful all in the same right. So yes it was more cohesive. CC abilities were there which provided balance in counteracting any class. The elimination of the PvP abilities homogenized all the classes so they pretty much feel all the same. There were ways to counteract everything and there was no one-trick move that didn't have counterplay.

AOE damage was worthless in damaging, though, when in pve, it was often the most effective on group targets. In shatter, aoe was totally useless since there was no need to activate anything. DoTs were generally a waste of a GCD, and the low durations meant they were unlikely to be reapplied. And yes, there were plenty of one trick moves.

I only see you complaining about 3.0 and the rest saying they miss it. The people who played regularly outside their daily roulette enjoyed it.

I complain mostly to remind people that it had serious issues back then too, and participation was about the same as now. Most of you are just reminiscing about the good old days and are forgetting what it actually was like. Feast died well before any of the simplifications hit or exp was added to it, and both seal rock and shatter declined to 8v8s in the off season too. They didn't just scrap 3.0 out of whimsy, there were serious issues that wound up keeping pvp niche and making it hard to fill the modes. It's not a solution to problems now. I mean the lot of this "pvp community" couldn't even fill ranked light party feast, despite it being a lot more balanced than solo.

[Wintersandman]

Riyah, You can tell when PvP Queues went up and when they went down. Freelancer enabled number of matches went up. You can look at any frontline standing on any server and see the uptick in just pure number of matches plus the people that played them.

You needed about two, and that also gimped your damage. That only preventing being one shot directly, which left you with maybe 1k HP from full HP. Even wearing them, it was still hard to counter, which is why they drastically nerfed it; it often was just direct, forced kill, especially in feast on tanks with medal stacks. The match devolved into waiting till the end to one shot the tank.

If you had a healer, it was easy to counter. You only needed 1 by the way. I can state this confidently as I played a healer, tank, melee, and ranged dps with healer being the lowest MP pool and no points slotted into Vit. I am also going to take your feast comment with a grain of salt seeing how you still have yet to pickup Goten.

And you forget the pld could also silence and pacify, and a healer or blm could sleep or bind/kb. An organize team could chain cc to an absurd extent.

Silence only useful against casters and lasted 1 second. So 8 seconds max of CC that is 4 max GCD's and without backup a Paladin wasn't going to do much to you. Pacify was only useful against melee and required a block to do. If you weren't attacking the PLD they weren't blocking and you couldn't be pacified plus they tickled so there wasn't much point except leaving them until the end.

I complain mostly to remind people that it had serious issues back then too, and participation was about the same as now.

Participation is less now than it was in 3.5 when freelancer was enabled. The only time participation went up was the initial release of Stormblood for the experience. After most people got the experience the fall off was drastic. I am saying this even before RW was released.

Most of you are just reminiscing about the good old days and are forgetting what it actually was like. Feast died well before any of the simplifications hit or exp was added to it, and both seal rock and shatter declined to 8v8s in the off season too.

Um this is a fallacy as I had 2-3 min queues for 8v8's on Primal during off season during 3.5.

They didn't just scrap 3.0 out of whimsy, there were serious issues that wound up keeping pvp niche and making it hard to fill the modes. It's not a solution to problems now. I mean the lot of this "pvp community" couldn't even fill ranked light party feast, despite it being a lot more balanced than solo.

The problem now is queues are worse and only die hard PvP'ers queue for them outside the daily roulette. RW will die off once people obtain their rewards and the PvP community will be left abandoned with a system they don't want.

[RiyahArp]

Riyah, You can tell when PvP Queues went up and when they went down. Freelancer enabled number of matches went up. You can look at any frontline standing on any server and see the uptick in just pure number of matches plus the people that played them.

the standings only show the matches played by the top 100 players per server and overall. The top always played a lot of matches period, but eventually, like all the other times, participation declined one incentives left. if you look per server at the flames for example, the actual amount of matches played by the top 100 were a lot lower, and trended lower over time. There also was Garo and exp that drove shatter participation briefly.

Silence only useful against casters and lasted 1 second. So 8 seconds max of CC that is 4 max GCD's and without backup a Paladin wasn't going to do much to you. Pacify was only useful against melee and required a block to do. If you weren't attacking the PLD they weren't blocking and you couldn't be pacified plus they tickled so there wasn't much point except leaving them until the end.

fluid aura counted as an attack due to damage, and if melee attacked the tank, there's your block. Pacify works on healers because our OGCDs are abilties, and being without tetra or bene does hurt.

Participation is less now than it was in 3.5 when freelancer was enabled. The only time participation went up was the initial release of Stormblood for the experience. After most people got the experience the fall off was drastic. I am saying this even before RW was released.

I get five minute queues on RW at almost all primetime. You have to play at 3 in the morning before queues die down. I get faster queues on RW than trial rouletteas dps, for heaven's sake.

Feast, yes, but we all know Feast had issues.

Um this is a fallacy as I had 2-3 min queues for 8v8's on Primal during off season during 3.5.

because people preferred it to the actual 4v4 to get mounts. Trying to get ranked matches though died same as it does now, and light party never even took off. And now both 8v8 and 4v4 are dead.

If you had a healer, it was easy to counter. You only needed 1 by the way. I can state this confidently as I played a healer, tank, melee, and ranged dps with healer being the lowest MP pool and no points slotted into Vit. I am also going to take your feast comment with a grain of salt seeing how you still have yet to pickup Goten.

Yeah, easy to counter if the healer could pick you out among the other 23 players, and wasn't being focused or pushed themselves. And I played feast mostly in season 1 and 2 pre-Garo, and left when after I got flack from someone for apparently damaging their precious ranking by not being perfect. Considering that whole match was tiring as hell, that was the last straw, and i did 8v8 for a bit. For goten, I don't care; it wasn't a draw for me to get back into feast, because to win it consistently I'd need to do healing again, and I was tired of healing people. Each time I try to do it, I get tired of having the burden, and stop. I have more than enough mounts as it is, and most of the rewards in feast involve being in the top 100.

And apparently, I'm not alone, since when i try to go as dps, i get 20 min+ queues, and as healer, its instant. except for practice modes, which no one bothers with. You talk about doing stuff for roulettes, but feast is an example of what happens when the incentives suck overall.

[Wintersandman]

the standings only show the matches played by the top 100 players per server and overall. The top always played a lot of matches period, but eventually, like all the other times, participation declined one incentives left. if you look per server at the flames for example, the actual amount of matches played by the top 100 were a lot lower, and trended lower over time. There also was Garo and exp that drove shatter participation briefly.

Riyah, Obviously you haven't looked at the standings otherwise you would see there are only 15 names on Lamia before Freelancer. So if you did 10 matches you would show up.

fluid aura counted as an attack due to damage, and if melee attacked the tank, there's your block. Pacify works on healers because our OGCDs are abilties, and being without tetra or bene does hurt.

Fluid Aura is a magic attack which couldn't be blocked in 3.0 . Pacify never impacted me as Astro and I have OGCD's as well.

Here is what pacification does.

Pacification is a status effect that prevents weaponskills and auto-attacks from being used for the duration of its effect. It has no effect on other abilities such as spells.

I get five minute queues on RW at almost all primetime. You have to play at 3 in the morning before queues die down. I get faster queues on RW than trial rouletteas dps, for heaven's sake.

That's only because it is new and people want their mounts. Give it a month and then talk about queue times. Frontlines however is a ghost town.

because people preferred it to the actual 4v4 to get mounts. Trying to get ranked matches though died same as it does now, and light party never even took off. And now both 8v8 and 4v4 are dead.

Because A we have RW and two it is a ranked rewards are meh.

[RiyahArp]

What does this matter? Frontline standings are low because RW launched and shatter is obsolete. What I meant was that even with freelancer, over time participation declined like usual. up till 4.0 hit and people really went for it since dps queues were ridiculous.

You mention how healers are rare. Would you like me to refer you to some of the career healers that placed top 10 each season? Granted I can only account for Aether, not Primal, but I CAN name several great healers that always placed. Yes, healing was tough. Healing was always tough. But good healers could adapt, DID adapt, and were a nightmare to take down. Still, with knowing what they could/couldn't do, and making use of bait tactics, advantage and opportunity, proper setup and burst, and sometimes just pure attrition, I took down many a healer, even some of the toughest ones.

...cool, you can introduce me to less than ten healers per data center, yes. And yes, people can adapt to about anything; the problem was that it weeded out so many healers in the lower ranks that it prevented the mode from really growing or thriving. And once people got toxic, that sealed the fate, because people started wondering why should I put up with this when at best you'd get a piece of jewelry for being anything but the top 100.

You mention healing potencies have gone down, not up. . . Have you seen the damage potencies of DPS lately? BLM is the only one I know of with a "regular" attack that matches Cure I's potency. All else is lower. I did the math. Cure II is still 500 potency higher than a full shot combo with ammo. Cure I is higher than each shot by far, and my Heated Clean Shot with ammo hits harder than most melee combo enders. I encourage you to take a look at the job guides. The numbers are all there clear as day to see.

That's nice. You have fun trying to heal a mammet push when i've just casted a buffed regen and asylum, and have both benediction and tetra to cure them, plus lowered recast on assize, and added potency to my medica via plenary indulgence on my team. Oh, an I have that pvp aoe ability, I forget its name now, the one that reduces damage as well as heals. So imagine there are two or three of me to cover blind spots as we push. Oh, and we can raise each other to full health with no weakness via our pvp raise.

And while we're at it, why don't I repose you so my team's cc can murder you, then immediately swift + holy to stun you so he can spin and finish you before you run. The 3.0 toolkit was if anything more powerful than what we have now in many ways. If we had it at pve potency you wouldn't be able to do crap. The only issue they need to address imo is getting potency down, otherwise its pretty darn balanced.

The Feast didn't die. It never "died". The active participants ranked up, and that made anyone left behind or late to start have problems with matchmaking. Attempts to try and fix that largely failed and created complications where it wasn't due. But still, with no rank decay, and let's be honest; a LOT of lesser skilled players, the majority of regular Feast participants understood that the best course of action was to rank up early and quickly to escape lowbie queues and lower skill tiers. Platinum, back then, was jokingly referred to as the "Promised Land", because you guaranteed wouldn't get someone lower than Gold, thus your risk of point loss wasn't as severe.

That wouldn't matter in a healthy scene, because even then, you'd still have people doing lowbie tiers for the fun of it. The top ranks are always a small percentage of players, and the bulk would be at gold or less in ranking, but they'd still play out of enjoyment. A lot of people do competitive not because they want top 100, but because competitive matches are fun in a different way than casual matches are. People would sort to their rank naturally.

That they don't happen, well, I'll leave that to you.

You talk as if I never had to deal with those same PLDs? Hell, PLDs were practically the Anti-MCH job (the defense specialist vs the burst machine - no pun intended). Taking down a PLD was tough. Stunlocks sucked. But I still have plenty of notches on my gun from all the PLDs I took down. Lead Shot still ticked away and turrets still fired while I was stunned. No, they didn't do much, but damage is damage, and in a race of momentum, every little bit I could take in my favor, I took.

In Feast, the PLD never bothered you, because mostly you weren't the primary danger. The tanks focused healers because dps classes would go down easy without them, and tanks were more effective to kill via melee LB by the time you needed them dead. If they tried to stunlock you, that gave the healer time to heal you. An the reaction times were pretty harsh to stun you. From what I remember some of the higher skilled players used act callouts to tell when the enemy did blood for blood, and that's how you could bait them. Most people couldn't even hit that level of play to counter it save for caster classes, who often needed long times to cast.

Frontlines was more fluid, and generally diluted the power of tanks.

[Kisama]

both seal rock and shatter declined to 8v8s in the off season too.

That isn't entirely true. At least on Aether, Shatter popped consistently clear up until 4.0. You would get 72 man matches during the days and 24s at night, which did pop slower. Seal Rock died for an entirely different reason, and that was thanks to part of the pvp community, unfortunately.

I see no problem with pvp being seen as 'niche'. They tried to make it accessible to the masses and it turned into hot garbage. The masses aren't the crowd that they should be trying to appeal to.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Adding a vit accessory eliminated getting one shot by melee LB which a good healer would spot and top off the person. Sleep and caster LB was only threatening if it was an organized premade but there were also ways to counter that (Spread out). Stun locked by paladin was only a threat if other people were paying attention, otherwise it was annoying and it was only 7 seconds and then the person went immune.

I'm sorry, I just wanna brag a little

Then. . .

. . .And now.

(In the first one, please note the full health MNK who probably had Fists of Earth up who uh. . . didn't fare so well despite that)

I'll stop misbehaving now.