I miss the old PvP.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Um. . . healers have always had faster queues than ranged DPS. 3 slots vs 4. 5 now, actually.

I retain my previous statement that there are many healers that are career healers in the Feast. Then there's the ones who prefer Frontlines, but dabble in the Feast. THEN there's the DPS that realized the current state of PvP balancing and have made the jump to healer either for faster queues, easier climbing, or personal challenge. My MCH protege is climbing as a healer this season, as I was told by them.

P.S. while I prefer not to play it in PvP - admittedly due to a, um. . . sense of pleasure I get from being an attacker (yes, in THAT way) - guess what my secondary job is?

[Mofafafa]

First of all, people that that wishes for the return regarding pre-stormblood PvP isnt only for nostalgia factors... Its more of that it require more *skill / coordination / thinking / mechanics / memorizing / awareness / etc* compared to current PvP

Let me tell you that why pre-StormBlood is superior than current PvP.

1) Dimishing Return, a mechanics that allow the target to have immunity after 3 attemp from a CC such as (sleep, stun, slow, bind, heavy) in which they are halved for every attempt by 50% from the duration each time. I use this knowledge and communicated with my team when in coordinating and inform them which target have immunity and tell them the time that their immunity will be removed after 1 minute passed from the last attempt.

2) Skill, which is more related to psychological or reflex toward players ingame, pre-stormblood have more reflex / psychological gameplay with PvP skills or any other skill such as "Blood for Blood / fetter / full swing / etc" that requires the reflexes or psychology play of the player to quickly react towards the certain play.

3) Thinking, just think about current 9 button smash gameplay compared to before.

4) Mechanics, similar to above statement but we had more tools to utilize with and coordinate with party. Positional / basically PvE rotation / perfect application of CC chain / etc *not to mention *purify* which the party member uses on other party member*

5) Memorizing, remembering your own party member or opponent skills used such as Barrage ( 90s cooldown ), Benediction ( 3 minutes ), Hallowed Ground ( basically 1 use per match unless it goes overtime ), purify/attunement cooldown, etc

6) awareness, yea.. no.. whatever its almost the same anyway *purify on team member if you notice* etc

7) lol i dont even know what am i typing anymore after these final exam

8) positioning, omg dont tell me you dont understand this. People complaint about getting mass cometeor, not knowing how to position themselves by spreading. In JP server, a misuses of mass cometeor will lead to disadvantage as opponent will pressure you with their very own mass cometeor. Feast, yea.. many people do not understand this concept including some of the top 100


Healer isn't really underwhelming in 3.0 and not really Overpowered if you actually have a skilled teammate in your party. A coordinated burst is what we need, and awareness for purify in 3.0 chain cc, and psychological play for all your healer camping needs
I always queue with my JP mates for Rival Wings we just always end up with cumulative above 50+ kills from only our party even though opponent is filled with healers.

What healer really needed is more kits like 3.0 PvP to mitigate themself and OGCD such as Tetra and tools such as attunement or the WHM green pool thingy *i 4gt what it called* to compensate the lowered potency of heals



and for the Machinist wildfire on Heavensward, have you actually practices MCH in PvE? completing your PvE rotation in wildfire duration with the extra sprinkle from Between the EYE, wildfire could still do serious amount of damage




Based on your statement regarding tanks / dps / healer

Each class have their own identity such as tanks, PLD = the protector, DRK = Debuffer, warrior = FELLCLEAVE | WHM = META sleeper, AST = the kite, SCH = lol you crazy | dps... nah too much, lazy to list down

and what you've proposed, it is exactly what the old system have on the respective role.


Thirdchild and Winter have their opinion fairly justified and partly yours aswell...



PS: i'm speaking of my experience in ELEMENTAL (JP DC)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I'm practically at the "bang head on wall point", so let me try to be brief in response.

There are more DPS jobs than healer jobs. This is fact. Healing is arguably a larger responsibility than DPS can often be. And yet, before PvP became everyone's DPS XP fling, it was far less common to queue into a situation where you were the only healer. In fact, a simple "hey, can I get one more healer, please?" often got someone to switch. Why? Because they weren't there to selfishly level something, and perhaps wanted to win enough to make the switch. I myself did so many times. I'm a better attacker than healer, but I've never been shy to try and help my team win.

You have the mistaken impression that I, or anyone else wants the old Heavensward PvE kits back. Sure, I'd love Lead Shot and Grenado Shot back (in place of Spread Shot, I really just hate the sudden automatic fire sound of it), but what I've meant this whole time is I want the PvE kit - with the obvious scaling of ilvl sync - as it currently exists along with the old PvP skill system. You know, the one that gave reason for PvP ranks to exist as a means to upgrade skills that generally worked far better than what they are now. Just rolling everything back to how it worked at 60 wouldn't work, purely because jobs don't even work the same anymore.

You say not everyone could close the skill gap of the old system? They made it "more accessible" in 4.0 and people STILL haven't managed to learn to do it right with 9 buttons. What does that say about the system vs player ability? Now, with regards to the old system, let's take into account if someone plays a job in PvE, it's safe to assume they have a solid understanding of it, yes? There would be no need to suddenly relearn a job or be left wondering where your pet is, or why you have no sect or aoe heals as an AST. Knowledge of your job IS that foundation from which to simply learn the best way to apply that foundation in PvP. I said it before; I didn't need my PvE Wildfire rotation in PvP. I could do it, yes, but the MCH PvP burst was shorter and harder hitting. Wildfire instead was free to use as either extra damage for insurance, or as a feint (tank sees me use Wildfire, assumes I'm bursting, and moves to stun, THEN I burst after, or apply Wildfire to one target to get the healer's attention on that target, then burst the other - both very real tactics I've used in the past).

As for whether they rise to the challenge or not: this is PvP. If you want to win, the ONLY proper course of action is to get good. Seriously. I had to. Plenty of the "best" players had to. No one's just good without actually making effort, and it's that effort and willingness to improve that sets players apart, not how well they can press 9 buttons. SE seems to have misunderstood that, and perhaps many other players do too.

Harder to use your eyes in battle? Really? I play on PS4; ACT isn't an option, but do you know what is? Knowing what Blood for Blood's animation or buff marker looks like. Being able to recognize an opportunity, or understand disadvantage. Being able to read your opponent's moves/patterns and create setups. Focus targeting someone who's buffs/debuffs you want to keep track of. Did that WHM use both Tetra and Benediction already? Time to put heavy pressure on them. The half dead DPS with 50 medals is easy pickings, yes, but his tank is overstacked: who's the more priority target? You don't need ACT to build combat awareness. If anything, ACT hinders the ability to do so by allowing someone to just rely on something else to do it for you.

And yes. "More than you know." I stand by that. I HAVE gotten Seal Rock to happen twice, and with simply putting the word out. Let's see you or someone else do the same with 4.x Shatter now.

[Wintersandman]

I guess the only way to cure you is to give you what you want. I'm arguing to try and make people think about what exactly they want, more than simple nostalgia. This isn't a particularly unique thing. In every MMO there's always a group of people who thinks if they can roll back the server to a specific time it would somehow fix things. I'm starting to think that the only solution is to actually recreate it and force people to look at it without nostalgia. I try to do this with words, but I think you need to get chain CC'd and suffer through that whole thing again to understand why SE did what they did. I don't think 4.0 is blameless, but its a better base than 3.0 ever was.

I was a healer and I was chain CC'ed there are ways to counteract it. You had 4 purifies in the group to include your own in 4-man. There was actual strategy in 3.0 and that is completely lacking in 4.0. There are ways to reduce the skill gap without nuking over half the toolkit. If a player wanted to get better they either played more, they asked, looked up a guide (there are countless out there), or they went to the Dueling Arena. This is where I met a lot of fellow pvp'ers and ended up in my first PvP discord. Also the reason why I switched servers because I was able to get involved with more people that enjoyed PvP.

[RiyahArp]

There are more DPS jobs than healer jobs. This is fact. Healing is arguably a larger responsibility than DPS can often be. And yet, before PvP became everyone's DPS XP fling, it was far less common to queue into a situation where you were the only healer. In fact, a simple "hey, can I get one more healer, please?" often got someone to switch. Why? Because they weren't there to selfishly level something, and perhaps wanted to win enough to make the switch. I myself did so many times. I'm a better attacker than healer, but I've never been shy to try and help my team win.

Feast forced one person to be a healer. So no switching issues. Healers are the roadblock for that mode because of it. And in seal rock you still had issues. Hand of Mercy couldn't be done healing, so every match you healed after the mount prevented you from that achievement. SE stopped doing kill-based achievements in response to that, but it had an effect.

i was going to write more, but its kind of pointless. If you think the old pvp rank system was good, that is a triumph of nostalgia over everything. If you think it was easy in the middle of chaos to recognize a single ability animation, you are underrating your own skill to an absurd degree. If you think the average pvper kept track of a healer's buffs to counter them, you overrate their skill and perception. The people who are skilled at a thing are the worst in evaluating or teaching others, because they can't separate their skill from their ability.

[Wintersandman]

Feast forced one person to be a healer. So no switching issues. Healers are the roadblock for that mode because of it. And in seal rock you still had issues. Hand of Mercy couldn't be done healing, so every match you healed after the mount prevented you from that achievement. SE stopped doing kill-based achievements in response to that, but it had an effect.

Um my girlfriend got slaughterhouse during 3.5 on WHM. She also got Battle High and Fever numerous times. I can share the Youtube videos to prove it. So Hand of Mercy is entirely possible as healer.

[Mofafafa]

I believe your statement regarding *skilled at a thing are the worst in evaluating or teaching others* is completely debatable, such thing does not exist in a modern educated world. Only exception is that the person suffers from dysfunction cognition motor in which they have trouble to perceive, also being old will result in degrading your reflex/cognition nervous system. I quote from ThirdChild from all his previous *different post* statement that, people are not willing to learn is what makes them not able to solve complex situation or question.

This is why ranking existed, the ability to carry your team allow an individual to get to the top. This however, the new system removed *most* of the tools for an individual player's / role's ability to carry the team. If this is the answer for what you really want.
Ranking system existed because it is to result of your hardwork and dedication with skill display on the match itself. Take sports / e-sports for example. Most people think they deserve the reward just by playing it at a minimal level which is not true even for real life situation, including PvE raid progression. Some people compensate their lack of skill with commitment to play/practices 24/7.

And if you're a player that always kept track, Now we bring back all the way back to the source of dispute between the community and SE, the "Chat Restriction" having that allow players to communicate regarding it.
This is why i enjoy playing custom matches and 4v4 Light Party Feast because of the competitive level.


but in overall, I believe your judgement based solely on your very own experience.

I have an rough idea for what the western side of Data Center regarding the coordination and ego but this does not justify for what you're saying solely because of the capitalism purposes for what SE trying to achieve.

The JP forum have complaint regarding *static* for frontline and RivalWings, this is the result of strong players have formed their very own community to play together with because they know they have decent PvP Skill.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Feast forced one person to be a healer. So no switching issues. Healers are the roadblock for that mode because of it. And in seal rock you still had issues. Hand of Mercy couldn't be done healing, so every match you healed after the mount prevented you from that achievement. SE stopped doing kill-based achievements in response to that, but it had an effect.

i was going to write more, but its kind of pointless. If you think the old pvp rank system was good, that is a triumph of nostalgia over everything. If you think it was easy in the middle of chaos to recognize a single ability animation, you are underrating your own skill to an absurd degree. If you think the average pvper kept track of a healer's buffs to counter them, you overrate their skill and perception. The people who are skilled at a thing are the worst in evaluating or teaching others, because they can't separate their skill from their ability.

I recognized that my skill COMES from my ability. I also know that anything I did, anyone else could learn to do. And come on, we've been playing this game for years now. Can someone really not tell the animations of skills they've seen and used all this time? Realistically, no I didn't see and catch everything. But if I'm focused on a target, I get to see it all unless they're literally out of sight range.

Let me correct your misinterpretation now: this isn't just me being nostalgic. I remember 3.x PvP VIVIDLY. My body remembers it. With only minor adjustment, put me in front of a 3.x MCH kit again and watch me work like no time's been lost. It's why I was able to transition to this simpler system and still do arguably as well with a lesser kit. But no, I'm not simply looking at the good and ignoring the bad. I AM however pointing out that what was bad about it has/had far better checks and balances before. You either don't see it, or refuse to see it, only looking back on all that was wrong before. There was a LOT that was actually quite right. People largely avoided or didn't want to learn/understand PvP, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was a leading factor that brought us the 4.0 systems.

[RiyahArp]

Mofafafa, what that means is people with high skill tend to think things are easy because their talent makes them easy. You can't transmit talent when you teach, so you need to put your particular talent aside and objectively look at people as a whole. What happens on a forum is often the high talent people gather together and amplify how easy something looks to them, when it could be very hard for everyone in general. And in games overall, skill disparities are huge. Someone can be good at a game, and then the next person can be so good they can do it with a guitar hero controller.

Ranking in games I feel is more to sort people by skill for good matches. This is because skill is on a bell curve. You have few people who are really bad, a decent amount below average, a lot average, then the same in reverse for good people. But the majority of people aren't going to reach a level to be rewarded in the way you think. But you need those people, because there aren't enough of the best to keep a game going. PvP is motivating the loser to play as much as rewarding the winner.

It doesn't surprise me the JP have a static problem. NA are individualistic to a fault, JP are communalistic to a fault.

There was a LOT that was actually quite right. People largely avoided or didn't want to learn/understand PvP, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was a leading factor that brought us the 4.0 systems.

No, I get your point. It boils down to "this thing was actually great! people were just too lazy." You hear it really often in gaming forum culture; it's actually rare for someone like me to defend seriously the opposite.

[Wintersandman]

Snip.

It is the communities job to teach. If someone is willing to learn they will. Don't diminish a system just for the lowest common denominator.