Tank dps harrasment

[Awha]

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You may feel like people blow it out of proportion when it does happen, and

Snip . . .

you may feel it is not a common thing because you do not see it.

These are both fair points, but for one I rarely saw toxic behavior in PvP does that make it any more of an issue to certain players? Probably not. That point aside let us say that harassment only happens to one player a month, in my honest opinion that is once too much. It is a great tool, I use to raid hardcore back in WoW pushing for world and server firsts, though I really have no desire nor commitment to enter a new raiding scene. I do understand the value the tool provides to further ones play. Still people do abuse it, and no matter how infrequent the two of you may feel it happens still does not chance the fact that said issues do happen to players, and for the players that it does happen to it is big issue that truly effects their enjoyment of the game.

Do I wish people had thicker skin and took things in stride? Yeah would make everything much easier, and we probably would still have chat enabled in PvP. Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them. I willing to bet it happens often to my friends cause they are far below avenge, I mean one of them sicks in tank stance and only uses their enmity combo, and yeah you do not need a meter to see that people are under-preforming, the meter just adds insult to injury. The easiest fix would be to make fflogs opt in instead of opt out, or make it so the data shown on the site is only your personal data. It would not fix the core issue, but like how the pvp chat bad did not fix the so called toxic pvp community at the very least it provided the illusion of it. Which is all a lot of people need.

[Dualgunner]

That point aside let us say that harassment only happens to one player a month, in my honest opinion that is once too much.

I agree: one person harassed is one person too many. But it remains unfair to deny people a tool because someone will abuse it: there is not a single tool in the history of mankind that cannot be misused someway to the detriment of people. The same logic could be applied to these forums; to the game itself; to the entire internet. Not to mention, even in absence of parsers, harassment doesn't generally go down, it takes other forms.

[Awha]

I agree: one person harassed is one person too many. But it remains unfair to deny people a tool because someone will abuse it: there is not a single tool in the history of mankind that cannot be misused someway to the detriment of people. The same logic could be applied to these forums; to the game itself; to the entire internet. Not to mention, even in absence of parsers, harassment doesn't generally go down, it takes other forms.

Did not mean to infer that I wanted them to get rid of them, my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it, or when it does happen people blow it out of proportion. Though to be fair SE pretty much did that to the PvP community, that aside they should do something to either inform FFlogs to make them opt in instead out or make it so the data shown is only personal. As I said in my other post it would not fix much of anything, but at the very least it would offer the illusion of protection from harassment

[Miste]

my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it

Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them.

Well, to be honest, you aren't going to change my mind about this so there is no point in continuing to try really. If I haven't seen any of it in 4 years of playing it to me that casts a lot of doubt on how frequent it occurs and nothing you say is going to change my mind on this. The only thing that could change my mind would be if my experiences suddenly dramatically change in-game to seeing a lot of parser abuse against other players.

How am I pretending issues never happen?? I never claimed it doesn't happen. All I said was my experience and my opinion that it casts doubt on how "frequent" it is.

One player once a month is negligible and you are free you have your opinion that once a month is too much and I agree I wish it didn't happen at all of course, but this is the internet unfortunately and any MMO are also in this territory. You aren't going to be able to stop people from sometimes being jerks to each other parser or no parser. It would be awesome if we could stop it, but even the nicest people get angry sometimes. Human nature and all that.

If you play MMOs you kind of have to expect to come across some jerks sometimes. Not saying it doesn't suck we have to deal with it, but we do, and the best option is to report them. I totally wish we could all get along better, but if human history up till now has any indication this is an extremely hard thing to accomplish even if we advocate it.

[Awha]

Snip. . .

I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that. My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue. Like I said before I hardly ever saw abuse of chat during matches in PvP, most of it was done after the match. It did happen to players while we will never know how large of a player base was effect by this behavior all we know SE took action, and I do feel SE should do something about the toxic nature in PvE. I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

If we want to get into technical and legal things here....FFlogs doesn't need "your" consent. They need SE's consent since all of FFXIV's data including your character belongs to SE, not you.

Nothing to do with FFXIV needs "your" consent since you do not own anything to do with FFXIV. You simply pay subscription in order to be allowed to access and use SE's intellectual property. Your subscription does not entitle you to claim ownership of anything in FFXIV and this includes your character and any data related to your character. Therefore your personal consent is not necessary at all.

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

I mean and if they are in the bottom 20% and wish to improve their play awesome, they can use the data and work on openers, rotations etc . . .

[Miste]

I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that.

Please point out to me where I accuse you as such though? I never said that you want to take it away nor did I infer that in what I said. My recent reply to you is my opinions and it is a general opinion not based on pro or anti parser really.

My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue.

Yeah, I feel that way, what's your point? I already said nothing you say is going to make me alter how I feel. So I already said you shouldn't bother trying. Four years is a long time and I personally know how active I have been so I have precedent for how I feel so yeah...again you are wasting your time.

I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

It's silly to share my experiences and opinions in a discussion forum just because you don't agree with it? Okay, it's fine if you want to think that way, but I also have little reason to listen to you either. I can share my opinions as much as I want to I am not going to stop just because you don't agree with it. I am not undermining anyone I am just sharing my experiences and opinions like everyone else here, you included.

So no I don't think it is silly. My 4 years of experience playing this game and not seeing a single instance of parser abuse against another player casts doubt that this sort of thing happens frequently. My opinion. If it doesn't support your agenda then sorry, but I don't care, and I will share it all the same.

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

And? Where did I say you can't ask for that? Go for it. I never mentioned anything to do with fflogs opt in or opt out so how do you even know my stance on it? I actually don't even care. I am neutral. I don't care if fflogs is opt in or opt out so...again wasting time replying to me about it since I don't even care about it.

Like I already told you you are replying to a brick wall here and I openly admit it so that you don't waste your time. You aren't going to get me to change my opinion or get me to stop posting said opinion by trying to shame me into doing so by saying I am being silly and undermining people. It isn't going to work. I proudly believe that people blow parser issues way out of proportion and try to make a big deal out of something very minimal.

[Awha]

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The reason I said I had such a feeling was because you are getting so defensive on the topic, though that may have to do with my reading of your text but it does seem to carry a hostile tone. I am not asking you to change how you view parser's, and I did not mean to say that your experiences as a whole are silly, what I should have said that it is disingenuous for you to feel as if someone that has faced such abuse is blowing how they felt out of proportion. You may feel as if I am wasting my time, but I do not since your position undermines those that have been harassed in our community. Since as a community the frequency of players getting harassed should not matter, the fact that it does happen should be enough for us as a community to band together to try and alleviate it as much as humanly possible. As I have stated numerous times, those of us that pvp have gone through harassment claims. I personally hardly ever saw people being toxic in pvp, still I never doubted the frequency or felt as if it may be been blown out of proportion. Since I do not know how a certain interaction may effect another person. What is a non issue for me may not be the same for another.

I mean you do have to see how having a position that undermines another persons issue is disingenuous. While far from the same subject, that is like me telling a friend that is feeling sexual harnessed, meh that rarely happens in-game you are blowing it out of proportion--I did tell them that, that did not go off very well. While the latter is clearly leaps and bounds more pertinent, still a cause of harassment that from my perspective rarely happens.

Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.

At the very least if someone is asked for logs before joining the group they will now before hand what kind of group they are getting into, instead of being told at the gate like the OP that they are shit and GFTO. Since if it is opt-in they could not just look up the persons name to see if they have log, said the person in question will know to avoid that group all together without having their bubble popped. Though if they start to poke the bear and try to join said group without logs and under perform then at that point idk what to say. While harassment should be taken seriously there is a limit to a person patients and I get that.

While not in that post in others I have said that such a fix would not solve much of anything, such as the removal of chat from pvp, but at the very least it offers some protection. Which is more then what is offered now. You are right though nothing we can do as a whole will eliminate such behavior just like the how the removal of chat from pvp really did not solve much of anything, instead it simply made it less apparent, which is sometimes enough to keep the willfully ignorant at peace.

I am just basing this off of what I have seen happen to friends and guild mates and what I have done to players. I am impatient person and at times let my emotions get the better of me and become a toxic prick. I do not know if I am trying to create a safe space, but maybe a space where the willfully ignorant can retain their ignorance and enjoy the game. I guess that is a safe space. RIP really did not go in wanting to create a safe space, just wanted to point out that this does happen to plays, and to some players fairly often.

I guess the short of it is what I have been trying to say this whole time is that harassment is harassment, and no matter the frequency it should be taken seriously no matter on the subject or amount effected. Ignoring the issues because it may be impossible to solve just does not seem fair. From a personal perspective I do not agree with the chat removal from pvp, and in my time playing I rarely ever saw people being toxic, competitive yeah though that is riddled with bias. Still I respect SE for taking a stand and listening to the concerns of those that had them, no matter how small the sample size was.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.